'Breaking Up is Hard to Do' - Divorce Attorney Randy Kessler Meets Ryan Millsap - PART 1

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. We here at the podcast are just as happy as you are that 2020 is in the rearview mirror. The studio was a ghost town for six months, and I'm happy to say we're filming multiple projects now. Along the way, we had to re-engineer our entire HVAC system to provide for the safety of our movie crews. Yeah, I'm looking forward to 2021 bringing us all a little more prosperity. We begin our second year of this podcast, and I'm as excited today as I was in the beginning. Thank you for listening in, and know that we definitely appreciate you being here with us.

If anyone knows where the bones are buried and what skeletons hang in whose closets in Atlanta, it's attorney Randy Kessler. Kessler's client list reads as if it was torn straight out from the pages of Us Weekly or Sports Illustrated. Tamika Foster Raymond, wife of singer Usher; rapper Juvenile; Bishop Thomas Weeks III; and Lance Briggs of the Chicago Bears. These are just a few of his clients.

When famous people want to call a marriage quits, battle a paternity suit, or get child support from an absent parent, Kessler is the man they call. He's not a heavyweight, but he's taken on and beaten Evander Holyfield... in a child alimony case, mind you. He's a lawyer that doesn't like to go to court, and he's on a network that you watch. He's got a sharpshooter legal mind. He's Randy Kessler.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap. Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Today on the podcast, we have Randy Kessler, who is a celebrity divorce attorney. Randy, welcome to the program.

Randy: Thank you. Celebrity? I don't know about ‘celebrity,’ but I’ve represented my share of them.

Ryan: Well, when you represent celebrities, you become a celebrity.

Randy: Maybe by osmosis. But the funny thing is, at least 90 to 95% of the ones we've represented, no one has any idea. They get back together; it never goes public. They have strange names that the press doesn't find, or the court doesn't recognize. So, the sad thing is, people think, “Oh, you’ve represented 2 or 3” – and thank goodness they have no idea of all the other ones, because I'd be in trouble if people found out about some of the other things we've been part of.

Ryan: The best family law attorneys are going to have those kinds of stories. How did you get started in family law? I mean, what draws somebody, like, psychologically?

Randy: It's interesting you say that. So, I've been practicing law about 30 years; a little more than 30 years. And when I started, nobody wanted to be a divorce lawyer. They fed off the misery of other people. If you think about it, though, every lawyer feeds off the misery of somebody. Nobody goes to a lawyer when they're happy, right? Something bad happened. A car accident; a bankruptcy; a tax problem.

But all I knew was that I wanted to be in court. I like standing on my feet. I like to interact. And I wanted to help real people. And the truth of the matter is, Ryan – when I started my practice, I worked for a few firms, did some family law, I started my own practice when I was 29, and I took everything that came in the door. I mean, I took... if you had a traffic ticket, and you called me and said, “Hey, I hear you're a lawyer,” I'll take it.

I took everything. And then, I started realizing that the people coming to me for family law came to me because they heard something good about me. They said, “My friend said you really helped him through a hard time.” That touched a nerve. And I was one of the first people to just change my firm website and email address to ‘Family Law.’ KS Family Law Attorneys. In the old days, you couldn't say you were a specialist. And that changed. You could say what you did. I said, “You know what? I'm going to go all in on this.”

And it turned out great. I've been very lucky. I'm lucky to have found something that I love what I do, and I make great friends for life, because I was there with them at a tough time. So, I’ve got no complaints. It's been a good journey.

Ryan: There's no doubt about that. You're definitely going through very difficult, traumatic moments; milestone moments in people's lives.

Randy: No question.

Ryan: Yeah, well, that's what I was going to say. On some level, how often do you feel like a psychologist more than an attorney?

Randy: All the time. They call us ‘counselors in law,’ but I tell people every day, “You should go to a psychologist, because your psychologist probably costs less than me, and is trained.” But you become an armchair psychologist. We were talking about how hard divorce is. I've seen a lot of psychologists speak at seminars, and they will say that to go through divorce is worse sometimes than death, because in death you can't blame anybody. You can blame God. But, in divorce, the person that's rejecting you – the person that's gone – it was a choice, right? They actually chose to leave you, or chose to reject you. And that's a harder mental thing, sometimes, in a lot of ways, than death.

But I'm an optimist, and I say, “Well, death is obviously the worst,” right? I mean, the other person – if you really love them, even if they hate you, they're still alive. You want them to be healthy and happy. And maybe that's the parent of your children. So there's some saving grace about them, no matter how bad they were in your relationship.

Ryan: Are you married?

Randy: I am. I skipped my first marriage. I got married in my young 40s. We dated off and on for a long time, and instead of getting married and struggling when I was young, I just waited for the woman I knew I wanted to marry, and waited until she was ready. For both of us, it was our first marriage. Both of us were in our young forties. We have one child, and we’re very happy and thankful.

Ryan: What does being a divorce attorney teach you about your own marriage?

Randy: You know, everybody's got to bite the apple. So, that's where I find myself doing stuff that I say... if my clients did that, I would tell them they need to change what they're doing. And so, maybe, I catch myself a little bit earlier. But human nature is human nature. We all are creatures of habit. But I can't tell you there's not a day that goes by that I don't come home and say, “God, after the people I've seen today, I'm grateful for what I have.” No matter what issues we have, no matter what disagreements me and my family have, they’re nothing compared to what I see every day. And it definitely gives you perspective. But, again, we all have our flaws, and I'm certainly not without mine.

Ryan: But you feel like having to deal with these incredibly traumatic moments – maybe the darkest moments of people's lives – leads you to a position of gratefulness, not to a position of... yeah. But you could imagine that there are people that get depressed being divorce attorneys.

Randy: Oh, yeah. Cynics. People become cynics. I'm telling you; I walk around at a shopping mall or a grocery store, and I can't say that sometimes I don't see people and think, “What do they have going on in their life? What hidden secrets do they have that nobody knows about?” Because everyone that walks into my office looks normal. Most of them look normal, right? And I don't have any idea what's going to come out of their mouth. I might think, ‘this one's a librarian, this one's a teacher.’ And it turns out, no, he's a male stripper, and she's a female escort. Who knows what people do behind closed doors?

But now, I know that nobody is what they seem to be up front. Very few people are exactly ‘you get what you see.’ No matter how much people like to say, “Hey, you see what I am? That's what you get,” everyone's got stuff they’ve done they regret, or that they know. And it's just a question of ‘how does that affect their behavior?’

And the sad thing is, I usually have to be the one to tell them, “Whatever he or she did, it's probably not as big a deal to the court as it is to you.” It hurts your feelings that she did this, or she cheated, or he did that. But most judges, most courts – they're in the business of moving forward. How do you divide money? How do you make sure both parents have chances to be with the children? And the conduct – that’s what you get for marrying a jerk. You'll get your freedom now, and you'll be able to go find somebody that won't do that to you. So, yeah. I definitely see some crazy stuff – and you're right; it probably has jaded me a little bit about human beings.

Ryan: Well, divorce isn't about punishment. That's interesting, the way you noted that about the judges. For the judges, divorce isn't about punishment. It's not about who's right, who's wrong; who deserves to be punished. Is that fair to say?

Randy: Right. That's true. It's about solving the problem that the judge has – and the problem the judge has is that there's a finite amount of money. No matter how many millions you have, there's still a limit to what you have. And the judge has to figure out how to divide it. And there are a finite amount of days in a week that the judge has to apportion between the parents.

A quick story: I invited a keynote speaker who was a ‘touchy-feely’ therapist who wrote a book on the ‘Good Karma’ of divorce. She was great. And she was speaking to a room of accountants. These people, they crunched numbers for divorce lawyers, and helped people figure out how much there is to divide. She said, “Randy, how am I going to get through to these folks? I'm a touchy-feely. They're number crunchers.”

And the light bulb went off. She said, “I got it. Watch this.” She stood up, and she said, “Ladies and gentlemen, when people come to their lawyers, they're complaining about what he did to her or what she did to him. But when we get into their accounts, and they start looking at how they're going to live, and how the future is going to be, and they put pen to paper, they're thinking about their future. And that's why the CPAs and the dollars and cents are what people should focus on – because that moves them forward.”

And it made sense to me as soon as I heard that. People want to complain to me about what he did to her, or she did to him. But when they talk about ‘How am I going to live?’, they start focusing on a solution. So that's what we try to do – move people towards the next step. Whatever happened in the past – therapy, friends, social network – whatever you need to do. But, as far as getting you on, let's get you out, and stable financially. We can make sure you've got a relationship with the kids, and we’ve got to simplify it like that. As much as people want to focus on the drama and the bad stuff, it holds them back.

Ryan: How often do you see people on the back side of divorce get to that place that was described by the book you mentioned – to a place of good karma? Where there's good karma between the divorced couple, the couple that’s previously been married; and there's actually really high-functioning relationships?

Randy: It happens. I guess a deviation from that question is, “How often are people happier after divorce?” And I guess, if both sides are happy, happier, then it really was the right decision. Sometimes, divorce is the right decision. Sometimes it's right for one person and sometimes it's not right for either.

So, to answer your question, sometimes we do see that. There are people that are... I don't want to say ‘mature enough,’ as if everyone else isn't mature. But there are people that figure out how to interact, despite the fact that they're getting a divorce, so they can stay friends – because they're going to be at weddings together for their children. They're going to be at family events. And they do it, and they figure it out. It's hard. So, I do see it. It's not terribly often.

Ryan: Why do you think it's so hard?

Randy: Because there are only two people that could cause the problem, right? If you're having problems, your relationship isn't working, there are two people that could have caused it. And who's one of them? You're one of them. And how often do we want to blame ourselves? If people don't want to say, “I messed up; I did the wrong thing,” then they're immediately going to say, “The reason I'm unhappy is because she did this, or she pushes my buttons,” or “He does this, or he talks to me this way.”

And that's what we all focus on. We focus on what somebody else is doing to us, instead of... or at least, in equal part, “What am I doing to them?” I just think that's human nature. You try to figure out what's causing you to be sad, when really, aren’t we all responsible for our own happiness or sadness?

Right now, Ryan, you could decide you want to smile and be happy. No matter what anyone's doing to you, saying to you, thinking about you – you get to decide whether you want to be happy or not. And it’s just hard to get there. I don't want to be too philosophical, but people could take ownership and say, “I'm going to be happy, and I'm going to make sure that my life is positive,” and all the other stuff would fade away. But it's too easy, I think, to blame other people for your unhappiness.

And a lot of times, they're right. A lot of times, it is somebody else's fault. Somebody else has been really ugly. But still, the only thing you can do about it is decide you aren't going to let it make you unhappy anymore. And that, I think, is a part of divorce a lot of times. “I'm going to get away from the person that I don't feel happy when I'm around.” Did I get a little too deep there?

Ryan: No, no. I absolutely love it. I was actually reflecting on how often you must see deeply, deeply unhappy people, and how often you might see deeply, deeply happy people. Because it's this major decision. It’s this major crossroads in life, where nobody's choosing a divorce unless they truly think that there's a different path of happiness.

Randy: You nailed it on its head. I mean, people ask me, “Why do people get divorced?” You can come up with reasons. “Well, someone cheated, or someone stole money, or someone did this.” But really, it's some version of ‘the grass is greener.’ “I would be happier if I got a divorce. I came to that conclusion that, if I wasn't married to him or her, I could be with someone who treats me better, or is nicer, or is richer, or better looking –" whatever it is.

But you're right. It's some version of “I will be happier if I'm not with this person, even if it means I'm not with anybody.” And sometimes, they’re right. One of the best parts of my business is seeing people years later that are happy they made the right decision. And if we did it the right way, they respect me, and I respect them, because the process wasn't terribly ugly and terribly expensive and terribly gut-wrenching. They got through it peacefully, like adults. And I can look back on that and say I had a little bit to do with how their life turned out because I helped them get over a hard time in a less confrontational way.

Sometimes, you can't help it. Sometimes, competition happens. You have to be ready to go to court. But I think if you're ready to go to court, it often sends a signal to the other side. “Maybe that's not what I want to do.” And if they perceive you don't want to go to court, then of course, they push. So, it's a balance between being able to fight and being able to defend, and only doing it when you really, really have to.

Ryan: Well, I got divorced years ago, and it was an ugly process. I left my ex-wife, and I did it for reasons that 100% had to do with just feeling like I would be much happier if I didn't have to deal with her. Now, when you have children together, you always have to deal with that person. But I will tell you – I think she is a lovely person, and actually a really good mother; a really good human. But she drove me insane. And literally, there's not one day that goes by that I'm not thankful that I left, from a human happiness standpoint.

Randy: And that's what makes my day. When I hear that you did what was right for you, and you preserved the relationship. I don't want to get too personal, but if you have children, then I'm sure that your children are better off for it. You said she’s a good mother, so...

Ryan: She's a great mother. And I firmly believe that the children are better off for it, because my ex-wife is happier. She's not in a place to necessarily admit that she's happier. She still doesn't like that language, for whatever reason. But for me, I think my children get a better father because of the level of happiness.

Randy: They say, “I want to wait to get divorced until my children are older. What do you think?” And I say, “Well, I can't make a decision to when you get divorced.” But I'll tell you what I do hear. I hear from children whose parents are getting divorced, and the children are 15, 16, and they say... Every time, the client tells me, “You know what they said?” They said, “Dad, what took you so long?” “Mom, what took you so long?” Children know when their parents are unhappy, and children want their parents to be happy.

Ryan: I grew up in a house just like that, and my parents stayed married until I was 30. But I remember being five years old; six years old; seven years old. Not necessarily thinking adult thoughts, but I can remember the emotion. And the emotion was basically, “Why are these people married?” I don't think that's healthy for a kid.

Randy: And especially if they're doing it for the kids. A lot of people feel like that, when they don't realize... and it's different nowadays, too, because divorce is so much more widely accepted. 20, 30 years ago; 40 years ago, you might have been stigmatized as a child of divorce. But now, I mean, kids know. It’s a normal thing. “Hey, are you with your mom this weekend or your dad this weekend? Because I want to come over. Can we have a sleepover?” And kids always ask, “Whose weekend is it?” Because half the children in schools are children of divorce, if 50% of Americans are getting divorced. So, it's there.

But I want to tell you something else you said that made me smile. I learned this through a family member. The best thing a father can do for their children is to love and respect their mother. So, whether you love her or respect her, the point is, you saying nice things about her has a tremendous effect on your children. I'm preaching to the choir. But it's a hard concept, when you hate somebody, to realize that the children are never going to hate that person, because they're half mom and half dad. So, treating the other side respectfully is a gift to the children.

Ryan: No, I agree with you. And the other thing to remember is that not liking to live life with someone and hating them are totally different things. Granted, there were times in my marriage where I remember specifically turning to my ex-wife and saying, “I think I might hate you.” Which I think was probably true. I actually despised the idea of having to live any more life with her. I was being eaten up inside; like, it was just bananas.

But, from a distance, I know that wasn't real hate. That was just the feeling of being trapped, right? The feeling of being trapped in something that felt really miserable. It wasn't actually hating her as a human. And it wasn't any real commentary, necessarily, about her as a human. It's just sometimes a really bad match in priorities and personalities, and lifestyle choices, or whatever. Like, it's just not working. And that's okay.

I mean, it's easy for me to say, because I was the one who finally said, “This isn't working. I'm out.” And that felt incredible. But I know that it was difficult on my children in the moment, even though I believe, in the long run – as we're talking about – it's far better to grow up with two parents who have the freedom to be happy outside of the relationship than parents who are, quote, ‘staying together for the kids,’ but they're miserable about it.

Randy: 100% agree.

Ryan: It crushes their souls. Think about it like, what we all dream about for our children. We dream of our children having big vision, and big dreams, and being able to chase their happiness; follow their bliss, and find fullness of life. But, if you don't model that for your kids, they're never going to find it. And it takes a lot of courage to go for it, and everything in life.

Randy: Well, you're talking to a divorce lawyer. So imagine trying to do that when you're going through a time where you don't respect the other side. You don't feel love and affection for them, and you're trying to teach your children about love. The fact that you found it, the way that you talk about your ex? That's great. The problem is, some people never get over it, and they're always unhappy because of their ex, in their perception. If my ex said, ‘give me more money,’ or treated me better, or whatever – when most people come out of divorce financially better than they were before they started.

On average, most people have more money when they're 40 than when they're 20. Not everybody. But it's just a question of... That was the bargain. You married that person; this is how it turned out. If it didn't work, at least you got another start on things, instead of being... People who stay together to do what they think is helping the children, when really, they're forgoing their own happiness. If you can do what you did and figure it out early, more power to you.

Ryan: I've got a question about the difference between studying law and practicing law. If you were... And I know you do this. You teach at Emory. So, when you're talking to young kids who are studying; 25-year-olds who are studying to be attorneys – and you're teaching them the theory of law, but then you also know all of the intricacies of practice, what are the things that you would tell yourself if you were in law school today?

Randy: I taught at another law school for ten years. I've taught at Emory for about five years. And my commitment, when I accepted it – I said, “My job is going to be to teach them everything that I didn't learn in law school.” And it depends on the class. Right now, we're teaching a trial class. In Georgia, we actually can have jury trials in divorce. We have full trials. So, we talk about family law in that context.

But it doesn't matter. What I try to do is teach them things that that aren't in the books. You can read all day long; you can study on the Internet. But how do you talk to somebody who is scared to death to tell you that they've had an extramarital relationship, because their father's a minister, and they're going to be the shame of the family, but they're happy with this new person – and they're going to tell me. They have no idea who I am, and they're paying me to listen to them. How do you start that conversation? How do you open the door? How do you interact? How do you not be judgmental? How do you switch to, “Well, that equals this result?”

So, I try to talk to them about that. We do sample consultations. I have them set up a table and pretend they're consulting with a new client so they can see how difficult it is. And then, we do it at the end of the class, when they know more, and say, “Isn't it better now that you know a little bit more?” But there are some things, Ryan, you just can't get without experience. So, when you said ‘law school versus practice’ – learning versus practicing – if I could only have one experience to be a lawyer – whether to go to law school or to have practice for 30 years – there's no question. I'd rather practice for 30 years, because the things I've seen or the things I've learned by being there, and by living, are ten times more valuable than the laws I learned.

I mean, the laws are important. You need to know what the limits are. But in family law, the law really is not always the most important thing, because you try to solve a situation, and the law really only applies if you can't solve it. If you have to go to court, you have to fight, you use the law. But if you don't go to court, you can agree to do anything. In court, you can only get child support to age 18 in Georgia. Okay. But if I wanted to, I could agree to pay child support until my child was 100 years old. So, if people can agree to things, that's much more beneficial.