'Breaking Up is Hard to Do' - Divorce Attorney Randy Kessler Meets Ryan Millsap - PART 2

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

***

Ryan: What do you think are the most underrated skills for a successful attorney?

Randy: Being a good listener. I think you learn... There's an old saying that I love. “You learn more when you listen than when you talk.” Another one is, “Kill them with kindness.” You can say the same thing a thousand different ways. I can tell you “I hate your guts” in a nice way that you would actually respect me for the way I said it – sort of the way you talked about your former wife. You said it respectfully. It was obvious you didn't get along. There were things about her that you didn't like, that irritated you – but you didn't use curse words and defame her. I mean, you're complimenting her, and telling me she is a great mother.

How you communicate is so much more important than what you communicate, in my opinion. You’ve got to send a message, and you can send it by sticking your third finger out at somebody. Or you can politely say, “I really don't agree with your version of events, and we respectfully disagree, but let's just leave it at that.” So, kill them with kindness, and listen more.

Ryan: What are the personality traits that you see in clients that are the worst kind of things that a human can do to make things more complicated in their life?

Randy: A lot of them. We'd always rather catch somebody lying and cheating – being dishonest about money, especially. Because, when you cheat on your spouse, you hurt your spouse – that's between the two of you. But when you lie to the judge and you say, “I didn't make $100,000 last year,” and then the other side shows a receipt or W-2 – now you've lied to the court. So, that makes for a bad client; a bad witness; a bad trial.

But as far as interacting? I think it's, ‘be patient and don't jump to conclusions.’ Don't assume the worst about your spouse. You love this person. You married this person. When you get an offer from the other side that says “He wants this” or “She wants that,” don't immediately have a knee-jerk reaction and call them a name. Step back and say, “Why do they want that? Why do they want the house so badly that my grandmother built and gave to me?” Maybe they want the house because it's where they raised your baby while you were out working, and they have those memories. Just listen a little more, and don't react as quickly as most people do.

Ryan: Well, what I'm thinking, specifically, is when I think of, like, destructive vices.

Randy: Oh.

Ryan: If somebody is listening, and they didn't have, let's say, an education in ethics or morals or... And, even people who have – they haven't really thought about why that was something that would be ethical or moral, and something else wouldn't. But if you observe life, oftentimes, there's actions and ways of being that are incredibly destructive. And if you're sitting as a divorce attorney, you must see these vices that are devices that lead to relational destruction.

Randy: Yeah. Well, I see so much. There's so many different vices. For some people, it’s gambling; for some people, it's drinking; for some people, it's cheating; for some people, it's spousal abuse. There are lots of those vices. But I guess the one thing they have in common is that, often, they're the result of something else.

Not always. Sometimes, somebody is just a jerk, and they have a mental disorder, and they can't help themselves, and they're going to do bad things. But if you can control what you're doing, why are you doing it? Why are you spending time in Las Vegas gambling? It's because you're not happy. So, if you're not happy, get happy with your spouse, or divorce your spouse – then go to Vegas. Don't try to find happiness in vices. A lot of people go out to drink because they're not happy at home, or they turn to drugs when they’re feeling unhappy.

Any vice, I would think, is a distraction from attacking the real issue. The real issue is that your relationship isn’t good. And if it can be better, great. If it can't be better, then end the relationship, and then see if you need your vices anymore. But I would suggest that a vice is not a substitute for a relationship.

Ryan: Yeah. A vice may be the canary – the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Why am I drinking? And would I be drinking this much if I wasn't married? Well, maybe so. Right?

Randy: If I was happy with my spouse; if I was happy with my relationship.

Ryan: Correct. I was thinking ‘single versus married’ and then ‘happy versus unhappy.’ I mean, certainly, there are happy marriages that people drink a lot together.

Randy: No question.

Ryan: And it just works for them. So, alcohol is not the problem.

Randy: Or, there are people that have addiction problems, that have to drink, and their marriage is still good. But those things are going to sooner or later affect... it's going to affect everything, but it’s going to affect the marriage, too. So, the main thing is, get help. If you have a vice that's addictive, not just recreational – although everyone thinks, “Oh, it's just a recreational drug; it's just recreational,” or this or that. Take it seriously. That's where relationships end; that's where parent child relationship end. They get bad. And COVID’s increasing it. A lot of people are dealing with COVID through vices.

Ryan: I had an old professor a long time ago who... he was a psychology professor, but he also did a lot of work around human spirituality. And he used to talk about how marriage was the ultimate crucible to find out the truth about your own soul.

Randy: Interesting.

Ryan: Right. So, if you had a proclivity – if you had traumas that were never addressed – then that level of intimacy is going to force you into a place where you either start to deal with them, or all the vices that attach to that trauma will come out. Do you think that's true?

Randy: Yeah. I mean... yes. It’s you two against the world. And the flip of that, Ryan, is that when I represent people – when they come to see me – they've spent their whole life with them two against the world. You and your wife against the IRS. You and your wife against the neighbors who put a fence on your lawn. You're a team against the whole world. And now, not only are you no longer a team, you're opposite teams. Your team is going up against his team or her team.

So, when you're in a marriage, you're right. It's the two of you, and you’re sort of on an island. And then, when you're going through divorce, you're on two separate islands. They're warring with each other. They’re pointing guns and ammo at each other. A judge I know once said, “Opposites attract, and then they attack.”

Ryan: Opposites attract, and then they attack. I like that. I was just thinking about one of the things that you said – as you said, it was them against the IRS, them against their neighbor, them against... it made me think. If you're somebody who has secrets, should you tell your spouse those secrets? Because you're probably not somebody who's trustworthy. They're probably not somebody who's ultimately trustworthy. And ultimately, then, you're going to tell your secrets to somebody who's not trustworthy.

Randy: See, but then, that defeats the whole point of marriage.

Ryan: I agree.

Randy: That's exactly why I'm in business. It’s because people don't plan. If people planned to be divorced, they would never combine bank accounts. They would never put titles in each other's names. They would never tell secrets, like you're talking about. They would not tell them where the money is hidden in the backyard.

So, I think, everyone's got a choice. You can live cautiously and defensively – drive defensively. You can be married defensively, and worry about a divorce. And if you've been married 2 or 3 times, maybe that's the way to go. But first time around? I'm a romantic. I'd rather say ‘go for it.’ And if you get burned because it doesn't work out, that's part of life, and that's part of living. But it is an interesting thought.

Ryan: I agree with that. That's part of life, and that's part of living. If my kids came to me and said, “I'm 22; I'm madly in love. I want to get married.” I would say, “Do you love the guy?” And they'd be like, “Yeah, I love him.” Like, “Go for it, then. Go find out, right? Go find out the truth about life.” That doesn't bother me one bit.

Randy: Yeah, but it takes some open-mindedness. It's funny. I was going for a long drive today. I was thinking about the Beatles versus the Rolling Stones, you know? Now, it's funny, because the old people in the in the day used to think, “I don't want my little teenage girl to listen to those long-haired freaks; those hippies.” And now, we think about the Beatles as ‘nice guys’ and Mick Jagger as the ‘bad boy.’ Right? So, it's funny how your perspective changes over time.

Ryan: The Beatles were a ‘gateway drug.’

Randy: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: Little did they know that soon, the Stones were coming.

Randy: Right. But parents... I mean, from what I can see by watching the Ed Sullivan reruns, parents didn't like the Beatles because they were dancing, and talked about love and kissing and all that kind of stuff. And nowadays – are you kidding? Strawberry Fields Forever. They’re the happy place. “All we're saying is give peace a chance.” They're like the good guys. And so, you're right. You never know what someone's going to turn out to be. The person you think your daughter will never be happy with could be the best choice in the world for her.

Ryan: So, you get to see marriage disintegrating. And obviously, your practice is largely tied to the institution of marriage. Having seen everything you've seen, how do you believe that the institution of marriage could be improved?

Randy: I don't know, that the institution of marriage can be improved. I think it’s a fiction. I think it's something that politicians and religious leaders sort of created to serve certain purposes. In other words... and I think a lot about same-sex marriage, before it was legal. You also had relationships, right? You also had feelings for each other. And they figured it out without having an institution to bind them into; they had to figure it out.

So, why do we have this thing called marriage? Why is it? And if you really dig deep into it, it's because, ultimately, I think, the majority of religions, or the major religions, want you to be married. And so, the politicians and the legislatures say, “If you you're married, you will get a tax deduction. If you and your spouse each earn X, if you're married, your tax rate will be lower than if you were both separate. If you go to the hospital because your loved one was in a car accident... well, if you're not married, you don't get to go into the hospital room. And if you’re married, you do.

So, as a society, we're promoting marriage, when really, we should just be promoting good relationships. So, I don't know. I know that's a little bit longer than you wanted on ‘how do you improve marriage?’ I think people try that all the time, Ryan. They ask the question. And in Louisiana, they passed a law a couple of years ago called ‘covenant marriage.’ You could choose, when you get married, to enter into a marriage that could not be dissolved so easily. Before you could get divorced, you had to agree to go to six months of counseling. You had to go to counseling before you got married.

It's hard for me to try to outguess human nature, or society, or religion. And I don't want to do that. But I'll give you some examples of why it's really hard for humans to try to outsmart human nature. Some states – North Carolina, South Carolina – have a waiting period. If you want to get divorced, you have to be separated for a year. Okay. So, people think that helps people stay married, because you can't get divorced for a year. But you know what it does?

In Georgia, there's no waiting period. You could come to me tomorrow and say, “Okay, I want to file for divorce.” We can agree on everything. Three days later, you'd be divorced. And people say, “In Georgia, it's so easy to get divorced.” That's really not right. Well, if you think it through to three seconds – guess what? If you and your wife were having troubles, and you're not sure if you want a divorce? If you're in North Carolina, and you talk to a lawyer, they're going to say “You have to be separated for a year.” You say, “A year? Well, let's get it started, because by a year, I'm going to know.”

Ryan: “I gotta get that clock ticking.”

Randy: Right. That's exactly right. But in Georgia, if I say, “Look, if you're not sure if you want to get divorced, take your time. Whenever you want to get a divorce, you can come to me. We can get it done in 30 days.” And that makes you go back and say, “Let's work on it a little more, honey. I'm not in as much of a rush.”

So, even though the legislatures and the politicians tried to pass a law to keep people married, probably, they've made people go see a divorce lawyer faster and say, “Look, I’ve got to wait a year?” Well, you're right. “Let's get the clock ticking now, because if I decide in six months I want a divorce, I've got to wait another year from then.”

So, it's a hard thing to fix. And I think, really, it's just a question of, everyone's going to jump in and swim, and hopefully they're in the right pool and they like it. And if not, then hopefully people have the courage to get out. The problem in the past was the stigma of divorce, just like where we started this interview: “How'd you get into divorce?” And nobody wanted to be a divorce lawyer because those were the frowned-upon lawyers. Now, it's almost... you want to get the best divorce lawyer, and you want to have the most friendly divorce, and you want to be known as having done it with class. So, we are changing things, right?

And if you talk to people, you admire people like you that got through divorce in a nice way and still have nice things to say about their ex – as opposed to 30 years ago. I think, as you said you were divorced, there was an automatic stigma. “You’re divorced? What's wrong with you? How could you get divorced?” So, I think, as a society, we actually are changing how marriages are viewed. And part of that is the acceptance of the fact that some marriages aren't meant to last forever.

Ryan: The part that is interesting to me is, I'm actually engaged. I'm getting remarried on May the 15th.

Randy: Congratulations.

Ryan: Thank you. I've been going through the process of dealing with my attorneys on prenuptial agreements and how that all gets structured. I was shocked – my first marriage, I didn't have a prenuptial agreement, which is part of the reason why the process of getting divorced was so much more painful.

But at the same time, what's fascinating to me is... I'll say to my attorneys, “Why can't you just do exactly what I want you to do in the prenup?” And they're like, “Well, if you're getting married, you are fundamentally subjecting your life to the authority of the state.”

Randy: See? We're going in circles. That's exactly what I was trying to describe. And you said it better than I could – which is, “Why do people even have to get married?” The truth of the matter is, you could say to your soon-to-be spouse, “Let's just live together.” You're getting married – for what reason? Because you were raised in a religion that respects marriage, or because you want to show that you're committed? I mean, how about you write it on a big piece of paper? “I'm committed to you. I love you, and nobody else.”

So, as a divorce lawyer, I should defend the laws and the system. But I really can't figure out exactly why each person gets married. And it's all for different reasons. “My parents told me I had to get married,” or “I can't have sex until I'm married, so I want to get married,” or “I can't have children unless I'm married, because there's a stigma, or because it's in my religion.” But to say “I love you and I want to be married to you,” why couldn't you do what same sex-couples did before they were allowed to be married in America and elsewhere, and say, “I love you, I'm committed to you, and I don't care what the law is. I'm in a relationship, and I'm committed to it.”

And so, lawyers are right. Look at that. I'm sticking up for lawyers. But you are – you're submitting yourself to sets of laws, and you're drafting a contract that lets you work around those laws. And that's what we were talking about earlier. You can add a prenuptial agreement. It’s a great idea for someone who's been through a divorce, especially an ugly divorce. You can say, “Next time, it's already spelled out.” And if your marriage survives the negotiation of a prenup, and it's probably a strong marriage, because you're dealing with these issues ahead of time. You’re seeing how you feel about things. And it's a hard conversation, I'm sure, to have – because on one hand, you love her. But on the other hand, you've been burned before. You don't want to be through it again. So, those are those are tough conversations, I'm sure.

Ryan: Well, in many ways, they do exactly what you just described – which is, they force you to have conversations you should probably have no matter what, ahead of time. But in our society, when you see how poorly the legal system can be applied by people who are emotional – oftentimes, people who are emotional are willing to do things that they wouldn't do in their right mind.

Randy: They have no idea what your life's like. Judges that make less money than you are deciding how to divide your money; or judges that make more money than you. Or judges that are very religious that don't understand why someone would cheat. Or judges that have been married four times and have cheated themselves, that aren't offended by the fact that your spouse cheated. You don't know who's going to decide your case if you're in front of them – which is why a prenup lets you decide ahead of time and not leave it to the luck of the draw in front of the judges.

Ryan: And it hopefully allows you to make those decisions. I mean, I agree with you that the luck of the draw of a judge is amazingly impactful on a legal outcome.

Randy: No one has any idea. You know, we're in election season, right? We just finished a big election. When people went to the polls, it’s guaranteed they knew who the candidates were for president that were going to be on the ballot. It’s almost guaranteed they knew, at least in Georgia, who was going to be on the ballot for Senator. But did they know the lower part of the ballot, when they saw a judge?

I mean, how many people even know who's running for judge, or what the judge does? And then, guess what? You know who's more important in your life? More important than the president or the governor or the senators – the judge assigned to your divorce case. Because that person can take away your rights to your children. They can take away your house. If you're charged with the crime, they could put you in jail. They could sentence you to death. You're voting for this person, and you have no idea who they are. You know everything about the President of the United States; more than you ever wanted to know. But they're never going to decide what happens to your children.

So, it's sort of interesting that people realize that too late, after they’re in front of a judge. They’ll say, “Who elected that person judge?” You did. You hit that button, because that person had an I next to their name that meant ‘incumbent.’ You figured, “Must be good. They're the incumbent,” or mostly good, because she had the same name as a friend. And so “I wanted someone named ‘whatever’ in the office because I like that name,” without knowing anything more about the person. And it happens all the time. People say, “How does that person get elected as a judge?” Say, “Did you vote?”

Ryan: Well, electing judges seems like a good idea in a village, where you can say, “Oh, that person's wise. I trust their judgment.” But you know them somehow, or your parents know them, or your grandpa knew them, or something. You had some reference to who they are as a human being, based on their reputation. Whereas, in this instance, you're so right. I think judges are largely elected by people who have no idea who they are as humans.

Randy: Yeah. Well, the flipside is, if a judge steps down or dies in office, in Georgia, a new one gets appointed by the governor. So, the question is: do you want an unknown public to elect a judge based on... whatever? They want a woman, so they vote for whoever sounds like they're a woman. Or do you want their governor, whose party you may or may not agree with? You may say, “I don't want a Republican governor appointing the judges.”

But the problem is, if you say “we want it to be elected,” what happens when it's a Democratic governor? Then you've forfeited the right have that governor appoint judges. So, it's sort of, what's better in the world? Would you rather have a terrible democracy, or a dictatorship with a great dictator?

Ryan: 100% the second. If you could guarantee me a great dictator, I want that. It's like Augusta National.

Randy: If you knew it’d be Gandhi – somebody that that was really 100% great, and selfless. Of course you’d want that person, because then... Look, that's politics today. People want to be led by somebody who's smarter than the rest of us, and can help us all. And the problem is, nobody is. Nobody's really there. Very few times in history do you get lucky and have somebody who's great and altruistic and good for the country.

Ryan: Yeah. No, I agree. The reason you never get to choose the dictator is because you just don't know who the second guy is.

Randy: Yeah, that's exactly right. It's the system, right?

Ryan: No one ever gives up power in a dictatorship.

Randy: Yep. Look, that's the old line from Star Wars. I forget which episode it was. But when Anakin Skywalker and whatever her name is, they're rolling around in the hayfield, and she says, “Well, you shouldn't have a Republic. You should have someone in charge that would make them be good.” And she said, “Who would who do it?” “I would.” Well, great.

Ryan: Darth Vader.

Randy: Right. That's who you turned out to be. I mean, you start off as a nice guy.

Ryan: All right. Well, we're out of time. I know you just drove ten hours from Atlanta to Miami, so it's probably going to be time for a nap. So, thanks for huddling up with us. Really appreciate you being on the podcast. If people want to find you on social media, is there a way?

Randy: 100 ways. You can find me at RandyKessler.com. DivorceProtect. Protect yourself, your kids and future – DivorceProtect.com. Or LinkedIn. I've got a pretty good following on LinkedIn. I like to post stuff that I think is interesting about family law, and if you're interested, feel free to follow me or reach out.

Ryan: Randy, thank you for taking the time.

Randy: Thanks so much. Love to do it again. You're easy to talk to. Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan: Yeah, talk to you soon. Bye-bye. This is Ryan Millsap, and this has been the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

***

Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.