Grant Wainscott Explains the Atlanta Ecosystem and Esports with Ryan Millsap

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

***

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, CEO of Blackhall Studios in Atlanta, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Why does a busy Hollywood studio do a podcast, you might ask? Blackhall is the home of great movies like Jumanji: The Next Level and fan-favorite series like HBO's Lovecraft Country. But for me, hosting a podcast is an amazing way to meet people and to connect to the community. I learn from each interview and from each person. My roots are actually in America's heartland. My mother's from Nebraska. My father's from Missouri. And though some folks might think I've ‘gone Hollywood,’ I'm now just an Atlanta boy who loves to meet new and interesting people. And yes, some of them will just happen to be famous Hollywood types.

I'm a dad; a businessman. I live on a farm out in Social Circle, and I love the peace and quiet there. But I also love to learn about the philosophy of human nature. So why a podcast? That's why. Thank you for joining me on this journey. I appreciate you.

Today on the podcast, I speak with Mr. Grant Wainscott. Grant is VP of Ecosystem Expansion for the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. That sounds like a big job. We'll find out about that, and about something that's been blowing up in Georgia and around the world: esports. Grant is the vice chairman of the Esports Alliance, which is part of the Atlanta Sports Council, led by Mr. Dan Corso. The significance of putting esports alongside the NFL, the NBA, as well as Major League Baseball, is a sign of the times and of things to come. Let's go to Grant Wainscott. Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

***

Ryan: Grant, welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

Grant: Man, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Ryan: Tell us about what's going on in the Metro Chamber world of business in the midst of this crazy COVID world.

Grant: Wow. Business is happening. You know, it's kind of a mixed blessing, right? You hate to see the job loss, and a lot of the challenges that the region's faced in our travel industry. Losing the Final Four, and so many other big things that we really relied on to help bring in and keep the city vibrant. But amidst all of that, we've still had some really significant project activity. We've seen some major announcements earlier in the year. Microsoft bringing 1500 jobs. We've had several other really big tech announcements. Deluxe. Yes, they do still make checks. Yes, it is a lot more than a checking company — but bringing 700 jobs. That was announced at the end of last week.

So you're seeing expansion in the tech sector. You're seeing kind of a ‘go back to the office’ strategy being employed by some of our bigger brands. And then, of course, you've had a lot of the... I don’t know that anybody would say ‘their wins.’ Nobody wants ‘wins’ like this, but the expansions and the activity due to the pandemic in our supply chain and our global health community.

The nice thing is that Metro Atlanta is not a one-horse town, right? We don't rely on oil and gas like a market, or just markets in general. We have seven, eight, nine really huge kind of ecosystems that drive GDP growth for us. So, when one or two are suffering or not doing as well, you can rely on some of the others to kind of help lessen the impact.

Ryan: For the listeners that don't totally understand the Atlanta economy, walk them through those seven cores that are the drivers of this economy. Talk about the parts of that that have been hit the hardest — and then let's talk about the parts of that that are continuing to expand and seem to be thriving despite the pandemic.

Grant: Sure. Since we're here in the midst of the creative world, I would argue, as with many, that the creative economy — everything from film, gaming, television, animation, post, music and scoring, fan and geek culture, comic cons, performing arts — that is what really drives not just an economy, but it drives the vibe of a city and a region. Right? You may come and move or go somewhere because of a job, but you still have to feel the city and the region.

So, one of those areas that has been hit the hardest, of course, is the creative economy. We are so inexplicably linked — all of our Fortune 5s, our retail, our hospitality — everything, really, is affected by and helps with in good times with the creative economy. So, seeing film production halting in most cases for 4 or 5 months; seeing our music venues closed; seeing the places that we love to go support our indie artists and our creatives — that's been tough. It's been tough on everybody. I mean, you know that as well as anybody.

Seeing, though, the vibrancy of the region... And we talked about those kind of core clusters. You have fintech — financial technology. So, that's payments. It used to be checks, and now it's contactless payments. So, you can imagine, in a world where everybody's trying to go contactless, having that fintech community helping solve contactless payments and helping figure out how to get payments, remittances; getting money back into businesses quicker, so that they can get their outstanding bills paid, and get paid by their by their customers. That's really important. So, fintech is certainly a huge driver here.

Ryan: I've got a question on that. I've heard various statistics about the percentage of digital payments that flow through Atlanta. Do you know those statistics? You do? I’d love to hear some of that.

Grant: You know, as chamber folks are wont to do, we love stats, and we try to only talk about those things and publish those things which we can absolutely quantify. The region, for years, has used 70% of all payments — all digital payments. So, credit, debit, and gift card swipes come through a Georgia company. If you think of the billions and billions of dollars that are transacted on a daily basis using cards, so much of that is coming through metro Atlanta and the Georgia economy.

Ryan: So, is that 70% in the United States, or 70% in the world?

Grant: 70% of the US. Great question. One day we'll have complete world domination. And it's growing. That's even with M&A activity; with mergers and acquisitions — we still have a global strong point. So, when we look at those core clusters I was talking about, it's where we are objectively strong. It's where rating agencies, and the media, and rankings all look at the information objectively and then declare Atlanta, Georgia — depending on the ranking.

Ryan: And then, you were going to jump into logistics, right? Atlanta's the home of UPS.

Grant: We are. Yeah. And it's the world's most traveled airport... in most times.

Ryan: It still might be.

Grant: That's a good point. There is still activity. You read about some of the restaurants and retail starting to reopen. And I would put my money on Delta, right? I would put my money on Delta in the worst of times and in the best of times.

Ryan: It’s a fantastic company.

Grant: It is. And the leadership that Ed Bastian showed, taking a stance on blocking seats, and really tackling this head-on, I think is going to be the difference in just how successful they are. So, I'd feel safer in a plane right now than just about anywhere else.

Ryan: I’ve been so impressed with Ed Bastian's posts on LinkedIn and social media in general. Just how grounded he is, and what a good leader he's shown to be in the midst of this troubled time.

Grant: It's been — as a diamond flyer, and somebody that lives and breathes on the Delta app — this is the longest I've ever been grounded. My father was a pilot. My whole family's been in aviation, and it's like not being able to breathe. We all want to get back in the air, and people are really starting to. So we're looking forward to that.

But the logistics piece that we were talking about isn't just trucking, right? It's the movement of medicine. It's the movement of data. And again, here we are in this amazing studio complex — and the film footage, the music; all of the action that happens here has to be transmitted. There has to be an air traffic control system of some type. We look at CNN and all the global news feeds that come through here. So yes, there's trucks on the road, but there's also a whole lot of numbers and money and data and images and art that's coming through our region. It's a fascinating part of the logistics sector. Others that are really important to us are bio life science.

Ryan: I have one question, actually, on the logistics side, with data. I've been told — and you probably know this, so I'm going to ask — that Atlanta is one of the fastest internet locations in the country. Like, it's one of the best places to have data centers, or run tech companies, because of the interconnectivity — not only in the United States, but all over the world from Atlanta. Is that true?

Grant: It is. And there's a few reasons for that. It certainly varies depending on what part of the region you're in. We still have a lot of rural broadband issues that we need to deal with as a state and are working on diligently. But you have these incredible fiber trunks — national trunks — that are that are here downtown, and in the region.

So, when you have bandwidth, and then you have such a massive presence by our big bandwidth providers — the AT&Ts and the Sprints of the world — coupled with low power costs and available power, you really get this kind of perfect storm of why a data center would want to be here. And that was really one of the reasons for the early days of fintech here — because all of that data...

We were great at processing checks for 50, 60 years. Everything came through the Fed here in Atlanta. And then, when that went digital, and we started with ACH and the things that we know now that help move money — all of that burns a lot of energy. It burns a lot of data. So you could have a $200 million investment by a data center company taking 100 acres, and there might only be 50 or 70 people working in that space. But the value, the equipment, the energy that they're pulling, and the reliability that they need from redundant power and trunk is super important. So, yeah; this is a great place.

Ryan: Facebook, I believe, just built a big data center, or maybe is finishing it up, out near Covington, which is not far from where my farm property is. And I like to spend a lot of time outside the city there.

Grant: Yeah, we've had a number of large data center expansions and relocations here recently, and I would expect that we'll continue to see that. Data is gold. And the security of that data is critical. So, when we look at fintech, a lot of people don't understand that the New York Stock Exchange is owned and controlled out of Atlanta.

Ryan: That's something a lot of people don't know.

Grant: They don't know. Right. So, we're not just processing payments. We have the company that controls one of the most important global assets that we have. That needs security; that needs securing. So we have this incredible cybersecurity partnership with the military, as they've relocated to Georgia, and large pieces of their cyber-infrastructure relocated here — not just to be close to a major metro, but to be close to the world's most traveled airport. Major, major... we'll call it assets, that really need protection on a multitude of levels. And that includes our country's financial trunk.

Ryan: And when you're talking about cybersecurity, you're talking about federal cybersecurity, right? National cybersecurity; not just Georgia cybersecurity.

Grant: Correct. I mean, there are a number of layers to it. The cyber center in Augusta that we — as a state, I say we — that the state of Georgia was so fortunate to be able to have as part of the base realignment and closure. Kind of a long-term process. We have been able to really utilize being the third largest concentration of Fortune 500s in North America; those big brands. And having, again, the airport. Having all the assets that are here; having one of the busiest ports in the country; those are all things that...

You can't separate military and business and personal security anymore. Right? All of it is so interlinked. And it's important that that the military has access to our corporate leadership, and that our corporate leadership has access to military intelligence... I shouldn’t say military intelligence. But the accessibility to have those partnerships — so when there is a breach, or to help prevent breaches, we're all working together. Because, with that information flow, that timing is so critical. You can't spend days trying to figure out “who should I call?”

Ryan: What are the two cities that have more fortune 500 companies than Atlanta? Do you know that?

Grant: I do, yeah. Little city to the north of us called New York, as you can well imagine. And then, in the ‘T-word’ state, down there in the south on the coast: Houston. Because of the oil and gas industry, it’s the second.

Ryan: Got it.

Grant: But no one wants to live in either of those places, so it really doesn't matter.

Ryan: Well, there's a lot to be said for that right now. There's certainly an exodus from New York, and there's been all sorts of trouble in Houston.

Grant: They'll recover. They'll recover just like we are. I don't foresee... I think there's such amazing and unique things about every city and every region, and there's people that want to be a part of that. And there are others that would naturally move. We're seeing, though, a huge migration from the northeast, anyways, to the south — particularly the southeast. So, with that net migration that was going to happen anyways — we certainly want to be as welcoming, and stay as affordable as we can. And, frankly, stay as creative and open and inviting a market, so that we don't lose what's brought so many people here.

Ryan: Are we still getting, like, 10,000 people a month that move to Atlanta?

Grant: I haven't seen a whole lot of U-Haul trucks on the interstate recently. So I don't know that we're seeing those numbers right now. But there are record numbers of, I think, companies looking at relocation. If there are jobs available, and if there is an environment that seems welcoming and open and inviting, you're going to continue to see people move to it, no matter where it is — particularly right now.

And so, as long as, as a region, we can continue to paint that picture and be honest about where we are as a region — what our strengths are, what our challenges are — there's a lot of people that want to be a part of that, right? They don't just want to move somewhere; they want to feel like they're going to make a difference, and they can get involved, and they can be engaged. And that's what we need here, right? We need the dreamers and the doers. We don't just need taxpayers.

Ryan: From a real estate perspective. I've said for years that Atlanta’s real competition is just other Sun Belt cities. So, you could look at Los Angeles, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, Houston. Who do you consider to be Atlanta's most important competitors from a city-to-city standpoint?

Grant: That's a great question. And I don't know that there's one answer to that. It really depends on what we're competing on; what we're competing for. You'll see a lot of logistics and corporate reloads looking at big markets like Dallas. Ten years ago, I wouldn't have said Salt Lake and Denver and Nashville were real competition for corporate investment. But today, people are really looking at, “If I can put a business anywhere, what's important to my employees? How can I have access to talent, first of all; and priced-right talent? Where I'm not just going to have job-jumpers leaving, like the West Coast, for another 50 or 100 K.” You can't blame them. I get it, but it's got to be frustrating to help manage that.

So, culturally, I think, when people look at the southeast US, we all kind of get lumped in together sometimes. But when you peel back the layers, there's only one Atlanta. There's really only one. And I say Atlanta — Metro Atlanta, because that's the region I represent. But the state as a whole. But you have some really amazing up-and-coming cities that are doing some wonderful things. And that's only going to help improve the attractiveness of the southeast US. Right? We'd like to think, if something great happens in Nashville, it's going to benefit all of us. And we hope that if something awesome happens in Jacksonville, we're going to see the benefit as well. So, we'd rather see it come to the southeast US than another region of the country. So it's friendly competition. It's still competition, by all means. But it's friendly competition.

Ryan: So, you think maybe Dallas as a major city, and then Salt Lake and Nashville as kind of up-and-comers. I mean, I hear those names a lot, with particularly smaller companies — because the workforce is limited. But there's something wonderful about living in Salt Lake City, and going up to Park City to go skiing. Nashville's a fantastic town, but it's a seventh the size of Atlanta, right? So you're just dealing in a much smaller market. But it sounds to me like... you think Dallas, head-to-head, is maybe the biggest city-to-city competitor?

Grant: Well, again, it depends on the industry. Lots of things, we're usually a natural fit for, and other things — kind of the availability of large tracts of land — lends itself more to a Dallas submarket. I don't know that we're really looking to become that city that goes out 100 miles in every direction. We're 6.5 million people in the MSAs right now, and projected to grow well over 8 million. That takes a lot of planning. And we have all these governments, right? We're not one big unified regional government. You have cities; you have counties. So that has some benefits and some challenges as well.

A lot of time is being spent on city and regional planning. Transportation initiatives; transportation funding. We all know how important public transportation is — or, at least, we all should know how important public transportation is, to not just getting people around, but to helping with the growth of a region proactively. Not just reacting to where people end up going, but being purposeful about where we plan.

I think that is one thing that, for years, we got dinged on. And then, in the late 90s and early 2000s, and certainly after the Olympics, we had a lot of people saying, “Whoa, we've got to be able to do a better job of regional planning.” A lot of money and a lot of time has gone into that. A lot of political capital has gone into that. So, we're in a much better place than we were even ten years ago.

Ryan: Well, today, Atlanta stretches... if you just dropped a pin in the center of town, and then said, “How far does it stretch?” It probably stretches 35 miles in every direction. Wouldn’t you think?

Grant: Yeah. At least, I'm trying to think of the drive time for the unions, and just how far out your center can go. And we know people that are driving 40, 50, 60 miles each way to come in. And that's certainly a choice. I've lived all over the world, and I've had some hellacious commutes that you couldn't pay me to do again. And now I live here in DeKalb County, and can ride the subway into work, and walk to stores and restaurants. We found our forever home. And certainly, we'll never leave.

Ryan: Is that Decatur?

Grant: We're in Avondale. Just right next door.

Ryan: Oh, Avondale. I love Avondale. I used to own an apartment complex over there. Right there on College Avenue. It was an old apartment complex, built in the 50s. It was this fantastic kind of four-plex. It was 250-ish units, but they were all fourplexes, and they were all these beautiful old units. They didn't have nine-foot ceilings. They had like 8.5-foot; something really weird. But everybody loved this community. They loved not only that complex, but they loved that area. It's a wonderful community of people.

Grant: Is that right across from the Waffle House?

Ryan: It is; right over there.

Grant: Yeah. We're right behind Good Karma. So, right by the city hall.

Ryan: It's called Avondale Station.

Grant: Yeah, I know it well. We’ve got friends that live there.

Ryan: I sold it years ago. I wish I wouldn't have. But the guys that I sold it to have just loved owning it. They were more long-term holders. I went in, we did some renovation to it, and then we sold it to those guys.

Grant: It's kept up really well. It's got a great reputation. And we love having them as neighbors.

Ryan: But Avondale is a wonderful family area; a great community of people. It makes sense that you found a forever home there.

Grant: It was neat. We weren't looking there. I've got a sixteen-year-old son who's a film and TV actor, and we kept going to sets; to shoots, in and around Avondale and Decatur. We're like, “My gosh.” We were living outside the city, and, like, “Why do we keep driving in?” This was someplace we really loved. And we ended up getting the house that he actually shot one of his first projects in when we saw the city.

So, it's neat to see, really, how the creative industry has changed neighborhoods, and who's living in our communities now. Everybody that we know within so far a radius — they’re lighting, they’re set design, they’re post. We've got composers. I can hear violin and piano music out the window at night now. And that just was not the case years ago. So it's been so great to see the diversity that the creative industries bring.

Ryan: So, many other big cities like New York or LA, Seattle, have geographic boundaries that are the ocean; or Denver has the mountains. Atlanta doesn't really have geographic boundaries, but when you get to be 35 miles wide in every direction, traffic becomes a geographical boundary. What we've seen in the last ten years, particularly, is — just like the story you're telling — people who have moved to the suburbs now are beginning to fold back into the center.

And so, all of this land inside the perimeter, as you know — for those of you not from Atlanta, ‘inside the perimeter’ is inside the 285 freeway. Inside the perimeter is becoming a premium from a real estate standpoint, because of all this folding back in, and the densification, right? I mean, you're seeing things in neighborhoods that used to be one story becoming four-story condos, and four-story apartments. And you're getting a much greater mass of people that are folding back into the center — which is a naturally occurring event inside of a of a city's natural evolution.

Grant: It is. It ebbs and flows. It's like the tide. And you'll see cities grow. You'll see trends change, and people want to move. And for years, it was... you start a family, and you want a yard, and a garage, and a fence for your dogs, and you think you want the right types of schools for your children. Although, we have amazing options in town. The days of saying that you can't put your kids in school... was never the case, frankly. But, even more so today, we're in a public school system that we adore, and wouldn't want to be anywhere else. The Druid Hills system. And it's been fantastic. Dekalb Schools for us have been a wonderful choice.

So, there are great options. I get what you're saying. But I think the suburbs are seeing this incredible rebirth and regeneration — when you have these major concentrations of people, and the desire to have a little bit of what you can get in the density downtown, in an Avalon. Or in Woodstock. Or in places that are investing in public infrastructure, and public facilities, and they're getting some corporate investment coming in. So, it's really cool to see. And, of course, we love having Downtown and Midtown and all parts of the ITP grow. But we really love it when people feel they can stay where they are as well, and grow, and have new amenities in a place they already enjoy.

Ryan: Well, when you're adding 10,000 people a month — which is kind of historically what Atlanta has been adding post the Olympics — there's places for everyone. Everybody can find the right fit. Avondale, and what's going on in Alpharetta... it reminds me of a book I read years ago called Edge Cities.

Grant: Yeah. Great book.

Ryan: Edge Cities was all about these nodes of operation, where it's not just about downtown and radiating; it's really about all these little nodes around a major city that become their own radiating influences. Certainly, in Atlanta, we have a number of those, and they're growing. Right? I mean, you have those kind of nodes up the 75. You have nodes like that up the 85. I think that, as you go out the 20 towards Lake Oconee, that's starting to transform. And you see a lot of growth in Covington. What's happening in Covington, I think, could become an edge city.

Grant: Absolutely.

Ryan: And certainly, in the South — you look at Peachtree City, and that's a that's an edge city. It might not have as many jobs yet. It doesn't have nearly the jobs that Alpharetta has. But it's on that same kind of growth path.

Grant: Yeah. And each city has kind of their own determination, too. They don't all want to be Midtown and Peachtree City. Amazing airport, right? Great access. Golf courses, housing, schools. You have you have so many different parts of the region, to your point, that that have a different vibe. They're all part of the bigger picture of being in Metro Atlanta. But you can walk to work if you want, or you can take a golf cart to work if you want. Or you can ride a horse. I mean, you have all those choices.

And, as many places as we've lived around the world, I've never been somewhere where I felt there were that many options that didn't just leave us stranded somewhere. Right? You know, you get a lot of suburbs that are so far out that you feel like you can't come in and go to something at the Fox, or ASO, or go to a club, or whatever you want to do. So much of that growth is happening now, all over the region.

And yes — transportation will continue to be an issue. There's no successful city in the world that doesn't have transportation as a constant issue, whether it's a problem or the ability for a solution. Cars means people. It means people want to be there. And so, if you can manage that as well as possible, then that is part of your growth trajectory — until we all are flying around with jetpacks.

Ryan: It might be sooner than you think. Or, at least, a companion drone.

Grant: Yeah.

Ryan: Which could be pretty amazing.

Grant: I'll take the jetpack.

Ryan: Fair enough. I want to circle back on the major companies. Who do you consider to be the major companies based in Atlanta? We talked a little bit about Delta, and Delta's been hit really hard. Who else are the major companies? There's a lot of people listening to this podcast who aren't from Atlanta. So, walk them through the major companies in Atlanta, and how each of these companies have been affected by COVID.

Grant: Wow. Well, I don't know that I can speak to each of the companies, and specifically how they've been, in not being on the inside with them. But our Fortune 5 community — really, the Fortune 500 community is, again, strong because it's diverse. You have major hospitality and tourism and activity companies like Delta, like IHG — Intercontinental Hotels Group is what IHG stands for, for those of you that don't know — but think Holiday Inn. Intercontinental Hotels.

And so, you have companies that have certainly had some challenges. But amidst that, I think everybody's anxious and excited to get back in the air, to get back traveling again, whether that's in a month or in six months. I think we will see that resiliency really happen. Of course, other major companies you hear about on a daily basis: Coca-Cola, and Chick-fil-A, and Home Depot.

Take a look at the logistics and supply chain world — like Home Depot — and the growth that they're experiencing in the supply chain side. Not just people shopping online or in-store, but all those products have to get somewhere, right? That Amazon package, or the HelloFresh that we're ordering, or if we're really jonesing for our favorite popsicle or gelato from some place here in Atlanta. All that has to get moved somehow, even if you go and pick it up from a store, or you go sit down, all those ingredients had to come from somewhere. So, that supply chain side — when you look at a company like Home Depot — has had some tremendous upside for us, and certainly other regions that are major supply centers.

We look at the healthcare and the global health industry — and, having what I think is the finest global health facility and leadership in the world — with the CDC right in our backyard, and with Emory, and all of these incredible healthcare networks that we have. To be able to have the American Cancer Society. All of the nonprofits, NGOs, and kind of quasi-governmental agencies that really make up part of the global health ecosystem. They're working hand in hand with the Deltas, with the Home Depots, with so many of our major corporations — because that supply chain, whether it's vaccines, whether it's testing or, again, people, data; all of that has to be transmitted.

So, I think you'll see some of the challenges that we've had in certain parts of the ecosystem start to come back. And hopefully, the growth in these other parts has really helped us mitigate what I think a lot of cities are really struggling with. Of course, we still have challenges. But that's why you have such a tight-knit region, and why partnerships and cooperation is more important now than ever.

Ryan: Yeah. I can see that. Some of the other companies that I think of — Coca-Cola. I imagine Coca-Cola’s sales haven't been hurt. They might have even gone up. I don't know the answer to that.

Grant: I know I'm drinking as much as I can. Coca-Cola.

Ryan: I think a lot of people are. Coca-Cola. UPS, obviously, with all the home delivery. I would think that there's been an increase in their demand. We talked a little bit about New York Stock Exchange, which is owned by ICE — which is, I think, called the Intercontinental Exchange.

Grant: That's correct. Yep.

Ryan: And then you have Porsche North America. That’s based here. Mercedes North America is based in Atlanta. I believe — what's the Arby's holding company called? You know what I'm talking about?

Grant: Yeah. And actually, that's a good point. I think, probably, a lot of folks — a lot of listeners — may not know that Atlanta is one of the biggest epicenters for franchise. Not only investment, but birthing and merging and developing the franchise network. So, you have a number of massive conglomerates that are here in town that own, like you're mentioning, Arby's and Wendy's. All these... not just food franchises, but auto franchises, right? You've got GPC, Genuine Parts Company. You have Cox, and the entire Cox Enterprise. You have investments at the highest level that really kind of filter down into our neighborhoods. And, as you drive around any kind of retail area, you see Atlanta at work, right? Whether it's Chick-fil-A or, like you said, Coke.

Ryan: Let's talk a little bit about an area where I know you have a lot of expertise, which is esports. Esports seems like it's just exploding all over the globe. Talk to us about what you're seeing from your vantage point in that space.

Grant: Yeah, sure. I mean... man, if you’d said even five years ago that every major CEO in a city like Atlanta would understand not only what esports are, but that they need to leverage and adopt marketing and working within it, I would have told you you were crazy. It's been a wild ride. We've played video games since they came around, and that old adage of your parents telling you, “oh, it's going to rot your brain, and you can't make any money at it.” There's a lot of crow being eaten right now.

And no, it's not for everybody. Just like being a professional basketballer or footballer isn't for everybody. But there are incredible occupations, and the link between STEM — science, technology, engineering, and math — and I would say STEAM; the arts component to it — is so strong that, when a child... and it's not just playing violent video games. This is shout casting, broadcasting. These are art direction and videography. This is filming. This is animation. There's so many things that go into an esports production. And for those of you that don't know what esports is, it's basically just the action of watching, or playing, video games for... well, you can say sport, but in a lot of cases, professionally.

So, you've heard of Twitch; you've heard of all these online platforms that allow people to watch somebody else playing a game. And a lot of people would think, “Well, that sounds boring. Why would I want to watch somebody else play a game?” But it's that interaction, really, between the players, if they're playing against other teams; between other players on their team itself, or on other teams; the game that they're playing. That broadcasting. And when you see a professionally put-together esports tournament, it is as exciting as about anything that you can watch. And there are hundreds of millions of viewers every day that are tuning in. This is not a fad. It's not going away. This is an entirely new medium.

Ryan: Well, I mean, it's entirely new in the sense that it's digital, but at the same time, it's just watching people play a sport. It's no different than watching Tom Brady play football. Only, with esports, oftentimes it's like you get to listen to Tom Brady in his helmet, and watch the view from his helmet, playing a sport — which would be, probably, a pretty fun way to watch a football game, right? If you could be in the helmet of the star quarterback.

And that's what a lot of esports watching feels like, and looks like, to me. And, to people who grew up with esports being just a normal part of their everyday life — the way that millennials... and my youngest daughter's ten. She's considered Gen A, Gen Alpha, right after Gen Z. And she's never known a time when there weren't digital screens everywhere. And so, for her to sit and watch somebody play a game that she likes to play is no different than guys getting up and watching football, college football, on television, which is a game they might not have played for 30 years. But this is a game that she could play five minutes after watching somebody else play it. So, culturally, it may sound bizarre that people are tuning in to watch other people play video games, but for this generation, it's no different than any other sport.

Grant: No. And the average age of, not just players, but people really engaged in Twitch and watching other people play games, is getting older and older every year. The ten-year-old is almost the exception at this point. It's the 20s, 30s, 40s. I do. And it's not just men, right? It's women. It's young women. It's an exciting way to get all kind of walks of life interested in... I mentioned STEAM earlier. Interested in, in “How was that made?”

We had factories for decades; centuries. And people would be interested in tinkering. “I want to go do this.” But that digital world of “how is a movie made?” or “how is that game made? How is that music made?” That really is the future of content, because it lives on forever, right? It's not just a widget that wears out in three years and has to be remade. That content can live on forever.

And the innovations in technology that are helping rapidly deploy all new types of entertainment content — new media platforms — it's incredibly exciting. So, talk about a future workforce. Our kids are wired for it. And that is, to your question: why is Georgia, why is Metro Atlanta, one of the top spots in North America? It's because we have Turner, and coming out with E-League. The first televised league. We have this amazing investment by the Cox family, and the Atlanta Reign — and physical, major team ownerships, just like the Falcons or Atlanta United.

You have hardware manufacturers, like Scuf, who make the most popular controller in the world for professional gamers. You have the performance buttons, with Control Freak. You have facilities, right? You have Axis Replay on the Beltline. You have Battle and Brew. You have big stadiums that have been retrofit to be able to do it. And then you have consultants — one of the top esports accountants and attorneys are here in in Metro Atlanta.

So, you put all these pieces together — and then you have a K-12 and a collegiate ecosystem, and presidents of the universities, and chancellors, and principals, who understand what a great asset this is for their student body; their student base. They're doing everything they can to create teams; to create clubs; to create scholarships; varsity programs. You don't find any other market in North America that understands so many different pieces of the broader ecosystem. You don't have to be number one in everything. If you can be number one in one thing, that's great. I'll take numbers three and two and ten different things all day long — because that adds up to a market that is completely unbeatable.

Ryan: Well, a couple things that I think are interesting going on. You know, I'm 45 years old. I've got friends who have been playing video games their entire lives. I mean, we grew up with Commodore 64s that evolved into Intellivision and Atari, and Nintendo, and then on and on it went. But these are people that have been playing games with their thumbs for their entire adult lives. What's interesting about it is that my friends who are huge gamers like to talk about the fact that, as they get older, they can't play baseball; they can't play football.

Grant: It hurts.

Ryan: Everything starts to hurt. They can game their whole lives. And they don't age, really, in gaming, necessarily. I mean, you certainly look at... there's a company in California called HyperIce, and HyperIce is a sports recovery device company. You'll see them in the NBA finals right now, or in the NBA playoffs. You'll see HyperIce next to every player.

Well, HyperIce recently sponsored an esports team in California, and they have a funny video. It wasn't intended to be funny. It was actually intended to be educational. But it's all these gaming guys talking about their thumbs, and their elbows, and their fingers. All of the workouts they need to do to keep their hands fresh, to be able to continue to play these video games.

So, anyway, one of the things I think is interesting is that you get this aging population of guys that are 45, that are now starting to take on a lot of leadership roles all over business life. By the time they're 55, gaming's going to be really huge. But these are all people that are totally familiar, comfortable, with gaming, and are going to integrate it everywhere they go.

Now, in the entertainment side, the place that I think is fascinating is, if you saw the Disney show Mandalorian — The Mandalorian is basically made with gaming engines. A ‘gaming engine’ is just software, right; software applied to digital screens. What they did is, instead of using green screens or blue screens and inserting backgrounds, they just built these really high-def — I don't know how many pixels — but super high-def video screens that are then run by a gaming engine that allows that background to move with the characters, to make it feel like a real background. And then they just literally film that with the character. That's how they made the entire show Mandalorian.

That right now is one of the biggest moves in the post-COVID world — in a world where people don't really want to have to go into public if they don't have to. They're trying to figure out as many ways as possible to stay on stage; to stay behind the walls of the Blackhall cocoon. The gaming engine technology, matched with light walls, is going to be one of the biggest evolutions in television and film that we’ve seen in a long time.

Grant: Complete game changer.

Ryan: Yeah. Are you hearing a lot about this?

Grant: Oh, my gosh, it's in everything that we're talking about. And again, I think that's one of the great things about being in such a vibrant and cutting edge market like Atlanta is. You see that connection between gaming, esports, and film and television. And now music and scoring. To be able to have all of that mirrored in a backbone that can actually handle the workforce and the education components. It's critical. You can roll out all this technology. But if nobody knows how to either code it; deploy it; use it — it's worthless.

So, you mentioned Unreal. Epic's mega-grant program. Atlanta was a recipient. Metro Atlanta was a recipient of tens of thousands of dollars in training money to kind of train the trainers so that we could get more kids in school familiar with — and young adults, for that matter; not just kids — familiar with the Unreal Engine. And you're going to see a lot more of that. The Georgia Film Academy — Stepakoff and his awesome team — have spent a lot of time looking at the crossover between gaming and film. So you're seeing our universities; you're seeing our K-12 system really trying to find the resources in order to deploy, as quickly as they can, those programs, so that we can continue to be a leader and workforce for those. But I'm with you. I love Unreal.

Ryan: Well, just up the street from here is McNair High School. And you mentioned Stepakoff and the Georgia Film Academy. We've been working with Jeff and his team, and DeKalb County Schools, to take a section of McNair High School that's been empty — McNair High School was built, I believe, for about 2000 kids originally, and today there's 600.

Grant: Yeah, it’s huge.

Ryan: There's quite a bit of empty space. And so, we've been working on ways to utilize that space to build a... I'm not sure if it's going to be a charter school, or which particular technical designation it would be. But let's just imagine it’s like a charter school, where kids can come from all over DeKalb County and study film, television and gaming — and utilize all of that Georgia Film Academy curriculum, which I think is going to be phenomenal. And then it'll get integrated in with Blackhall here, because literally, they're two minutes down the street.

Grant: Yeah. That's incredible, to be so close to an asset like that. And talk about a region that that's ready for that type of community engagement. That’s Dekalb. I think you find residents are — and the young people here, because they can see music; they can see film being made. Because you have this incredible facility here, it's brought that action. And I think that the access is so much closer to the people in this region. That's true of studios around anywhere; around a city like this — or like LA; someplace that has a large concentration.

Sometimes you have to be able to see it — and of course, have those opportunities to interact — before you really understand you can be there too. It's not this unattainable job in the film industry, or in the creative industries. Anybody can have access to that.

Ryan: Yeah. Until you can see it, I think, it becomes really difficult to imagine it. Very few people are Leonardo da Vinci and wake up in the morning and imagine a helicopter. But once you've seen a helicopter, you might be able to imagine all the things you could use a helicopter to do. So, I look back at my wonderfully middle-class American upbringing. I had no idea what an investment banker was. I had no idea what a real estate developer was. I had no idea what a hedge fund manager was. Today, most of the doctors I know want their kids to be hedge fund managers. But they only know about that because hedge fund managers came into a sense of cultural normalcy.

You get a show like Billions. How many kids are, for the first time in their lives, imagining or even thinking about being a hedge fund manager in Connecticut, and what that might look like? So, I'm a huge believer in the necessary engagement of all of these professions at every level of our society — such that people can see and imagine all of their options, and then be able to choose a path. Because it's really... In a lot of places in our society, people see their options as very limited.

Grant: Right. I think, with the national discourse that we're having today, it's even more important to make sure that... and I forget who said it, but it's talking about bringing the people to the economy versus bringing the economy to the people. Understanding how you create an inclusive, inviting environment, where everyone, every child, has opportunities afforded to them. Whatever path they want to take, they're at least exposed, and given those chances. And it's incumbent upon all of us to make sure that that happens.

So, the work that you're doing with the school, I think, is incredible. We need more of that. We need more of those corporate partnerships. And again — I sound like a broken record, but I think that's what's so special about being in Metro Atlanta. You have companies with hearts, right? We're not leading this national discussion just to tick a box. This is something that people, at their core, care about. They care about the city, and they care about the people who live in this region. And, if anybody can lead and show the way to creating a more inclusive environment? It's Metro Atlanta. It’s Georgia.

Ryan: I agree with that. I mean, Atlanta's been creating an inclusive environment for decades, in a way that I think most other American cities can only dream of achieving. And so, in many ways, this kind of national crisis that we're facing is a crisis that, in many ways, Atlanta's solved. Now, it doesn't mean that Atlanta hasn't had its own issues — in recent weeks, with protests and different things.

But I would say that that is not the cultural norm of this city. In fact, I've been so incredibly impressed, in the years that I've lived here, with the amount of cultural and racial integration that takes place here — in not a proactive way, but in a very organic, natural way.

Yeah. This is a special place. This is certainly one of the reasons that that drew us here as a family. I've been able to raise two children in this region who are critical thinkers; open-minded; who see the world in a completely different way than I think some of the country does. And I've got Atlanta to thank for that — Metro Atlanta.

Ryan: So, let's set COVID aside, and imagine we're not dealing with that particular crisis forever. Imagine for me a few things that you would love to see happen in Atlanta over the next five years.

Grant: Oh, wow. Let's see; this is 2020. So, six years. World Cup. I mean, number one; period. World Cup. That's numbers one through ten. We’ve got to win it. We’ve got to host it. We’ve got to kill it. That will be absolute market-defining, just like the Olympics were for us. It will be market-defining for our youth sports programs. It will be market-defining for our stadiums; for team investment. That's Grant's personal opinion.

Ryan: When will that be decided?

Grant: Hopefully in the next year. There's a lot of folks working really hard on our... if you remember, the bid is Mexico, Canada, and the US. So it's all three of us. It's the first time a region, an entire region like this, has been selected. So, a lot of competition. But we're certainly hopeful we stand a great chance. And a lot of great colleagues — like Dan Corso with the Sports Council, who's in our office — are spending their lives on that. So I'd say that's almost all the top.

I think, more than anything, though, we have to be able... to our conversation just a second ago, Ryan. I think we have to be able to continue to find those solutions, and be that sounding board — and, frankly, be those advocates that can continue to have the hard conversations. Right? The difficult conversations that, for years, we've had to kind of have in the shadows. The time for that is over. And, I think, being able to have that kind of inclusive economic development — the right type of growth that allows for everybody to win. Not just building buildings and gentrifying neighborhoods so that we can make everything look like one part of town. It has to be culturally relevant. It has to be socially relevant. And I think we're off to some amazing discussions and some great progress. We've got a lot of work to go. But again, in five years, we will be, I firmly believe, the shining example of how you tackle a challenge head-on. You don't shy away from it.

Ryan: We're out of time. If people want to find you, do you have social media?

Grant: I do, yeah. It depends on who's trying to find me. IRS, FBI, you never heard of me.

Ryan: They know how to find you.

Grant: They know. That's true. I paid my taxes on time this year. No; the Metro Chamber is a great resource. MetroAtlantaChamber.com. My social media is just @GrantWainscott. Twitter, and LinkedIn, and the like. But we're always up for having a conversation. We want to be a connector. We want to hear from the region; from businesses; from job seekers. Tell us what's going on. How can we help? We're one of the country's oldest and largest chambers of commerce, and completely private. And it's our job to make sure that companies and people feel like they have a community they want to be in forever.

Ryan: Well, thanks for being here. It's been great to hear about what's going on in Atlanta; what's going on in Georgia. Appreciate all your efforts on that behalf. I mean, I know the Metro Atlanta Chamber has had such a huge role in helping grow this economy over many, many decades. So I appreciate all your efforts.

Grant: It's been an honor. Thank you. We wouldn't be here without amazing investments and folks like you. So keep growing. Let's get this to 2000 acres.

Ryan: Oh, I’d love that. Thanks, Grant. Talk to you soon.

Grant: Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

***

Ryan: Just when you think you've given absolutely everything and that nothing more can possibly be asked of you, the emptiness is swept up and the dust collected, and you had no idea you even cared about the dust until it was gone. Yet, in total absence, there is the unnamable eternal presence, there before all things were made. And the only option is total surrender. And death leads to life. And with acceptance of total loss, everything that matters is found.

***

Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.