Matt Baxter Talks Developing the Hopper Popper with Ryan Millsap

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap. I got into the moviemaking business by being a real estate entrepreneur, but also because I'm a big movie fan. I get a huge kick out of watching blockbuster movies that I watch being made at Blackhall. COVID-19 has put a temporary crimp in production — hasn't it for everybody? But some amazing movies will be shooting at our studio soon, and I'll have some amazing folks on the podcast.

I'm also into ethics and philosophy, and I think you'll see those themes throughout the podcast. So, you're wondering: where exactly does the movie business and philosophy come together? That's the journey I want to take you on on the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I’ll bring you guests from both worlds, and I think you'll be surprised at how much philosophy goes into the world of making movies. Plus, you'll get an inside look at the new Hollywood of the South right here in Atlanta, Georgia. Give a listen. I think you'll enjoy what you hear. I'm happy to have you along for the ride on the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

Next up on the Blackhall Studios Podcast is my friend, Mr. Matt Baxter — an entrepreneur on fire. Matt is a Michigan boy done good. Five years ago, Matt dove into the world of designing remote recruiting systems and operations. He built a startup, Competitive Wedge — ‘Wedge’ for short — on money that he earned while day-trading in college. Remote recruiting is hot right now because of the pandemic, as well as the global cultural shift to remote working.

Let's talk with Matt about the pressures of being an entrepreneur, raising investment money, the Hopper Popper — no, it's not microwave popcorn — his love of country music, elephants, and the B-52s’ ‘Love Shack.’ Listen and learn with my guest, Matt Baxter.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap. Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm here today with the recently-announced 2020 Entrepreneur of the Year in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Matt Baxter. Matt, welcome to the program.

Matt: Thank you for having me. I thought we talked about not mentioning that, but thank you for having me. It's good to be here.

Ryan: Of course I’m going to mention that. You're world-famous in Grand Rapids.

Matt: I was about to say, you've got entrepreneurs; entertainers. You’ve got all the famous people, and you’ve got a schmuck like me coming into Atlanta recording this.

Ryan: Well, you're far from a schmuck. Tell these guys what you've been working on on the entrepreneurial side. Tell us a little bit about Wedge, and tell us about the Hopper Popper.

Matt: So, my main business, Wedge, is a video interviewing tool. For the tech gurus out there, we are a SAS product. We sell software to HR companies; talent acquisition people who want to leverage video as part of their hiring process. The biggest value add is, if you hate phone screening, we can turn you into a superhero. There you have it. There you go.

So, we help companies hire. We do so, and help people in an efficient, effective way. And then, a side project that gained some steam was the Hopper Popper, which is a toilet seat foot pedal raiser designed so that you don't have to touch the toilet seat again when you go pee. Right? So, admittedly, in the grand scheme of life, COVID was pretty good for both businesses. Everything went virtual pretty quickly. And also, people don't want to touch toilet seats.

Ryan: Well, Wedge has had a little bit of the ‘Zoom effect,’ right?

Matt: For sure. When COVID first broke out, basically, companies had three reactions. Either they were hiring like crazy — you know, the essential businesses — or they froze, had no reaction at all, or they were laying off. But the essential businesses were hiring, like, ten times what they were doing before. So, we had people rushing to us like crazy, saying, “we need to digitalize. We've only been hiring in person. What do we do next?”

So, we had a lot of people come to us that way. And now, as the world starts to reopen, you have the second ripple effect of saying, “we have no idea how to hire online. We have no idea how to turn this whole thing remote.” So, we've had a really, really fortunate time of rapid growth in the midst of a pandemic, which has been pretty interesting. I don't want to be the funeral home director smiling, by any means. But it's definitely modernized the recruiting process, which has been fun.

Ryan: Hey, listen COVID's been good to Elon Musk. So it's okay if it's been good to you.

Matt: Exactly right. Exactly right.

Ryan: Someone told me recently that Elon was increasing his net worth, like, 10 billion a day.

Matt: Oh. It's unbelievable. Him and Bezos combined — it's like their growth per day matches a lot of countries’ GDPs.

Ryan: It's good to be them. Woof. I love America. Let's talk a little bit about Hopper Popper. Tell me about the evolution. Where did this idea come from? And then, I’ll all ask a bunch of questions about how it developed.

Matt: So, if you want the unfiltered idea, I may or may not have had a beer or two, or something like that, and walked into my cousin's house, who — a bit of backstory. As I mentioned, Holland, Michigan is a very central place for manufacturing. My uncle's company is a subassembly manufacturing company for these ‘big three’ furniture manufacturing companies. DJ, my cousin, is an engineer — basically groomed to take over that business, and has a mind for that.

So I walked in, and I'm kind of more of the, maybe, ‘out there’ idea person. He's more of the ‘practical; get it done.’ I walked in, and I said, “Dude, I'm so sick and tired of touching pee. You do the awkward... put your foot on the pedal, and raise it up with your foot. You know, it's just a weird thing.” And I was like, “There's got to be something better.” So of course... I don't know, we might have had another beer or something like that and kept talking about it. And the next day, he went to Menards and chopped up some PVC pipe and made the first prototype. So, we still have that sitting out there. And then we kept talking. This was two years ago.

Ryan: Two things real quick. This podcast is based in Atlanta, so we're not allowed to shop at anywhere other than Home Depot.

Matt: Of course not.

Ryan: So, nobody knows what Menards is.

Matt: We're working on getting into Home Depot, so it's not Menards. Just so everybody knows.

Ryan: And then, you live in Holland, Michigan?

Matt: I live in Holland, Michigan. We're known for tulips and Dutch shoes, so everybody's aware.

Ryan: And beautiful Dutch women.

Matt: And beautiful Dutch women.

Ryan: Western Michigan.

Matt: That's it. That's why I stuck around.

Ryan: Okay, so you come up with this idea, he makes it into a PVC pipe prototype. What's the next step?

Matt: So, you're catching this at the best time ever, because first step was, we went to suppliers that they had access to with his uncle's company. And we made our first couple prototypes. We put a couple things together, and started testing, testing, testing. And then we got a couple of early buyers, which were very supportive in the process. Got to give some shout-outs to Blackhall Studios for that.

Ryan: Was Blackhall Studios your first major industrial buyer?

Matt: Yes.

Ryan: Is that bad that I'm telling you?

Matt: No, no. I knew that already. I think, verbatim, we talked about that beforehand, but yeah. Blackhall was the first. And so, the special part about that is, that allowed us to truly test it in an unbiased market. As you learn in the entrepreneurial world, you get a lot of people who give you a pat on the back. “Wow, that's such a great idea,” or “I would definitely buy it.” And not a lot of people actually do. So, to get true product feedback is like... there's nothing better.

Ryan: So, talk about some of the things that you learned. We installed all these at Blackhall Studios. It's a new idea. You put them in here. Tell me all the things we told you sucked about it.

Matt: So, number one was, the pedal moves around. The first feedback we got was, “Okay, we're going to have to clean the thing.” We pitched this thing in front of a couple hospitals. And their comment back to us was, “Hey, if you can demonstrate on a quantitative process that this is going to reduce our level of cleaning rather than increase it, we’ll buy for all of our different hospitals.” That's one of the things we're working through as we speak.

When we first created it, we wanted the pedal to be freestanding; to move around, so that you can clean it. You didn't have to deal with removing it, or anything like that. So, when we presented it to you guys, you came back and said, “We actually want it to be stationary.” And that was just a lesson that we learned. We came back, and we said, “okay, let's make a stationary bolt shoe-in that you guys don't mind drilling.” And that was our first feedback — to say, you guys don't mind actually drilling into the floor to have the thing remain.

Ryan: Yeah. Because the problem was, I would walk in to utilize the Hopper Popper, and the pedal would be laying on the ground sideways.

Matt: And that defeats the whole purpose.

Ryan: That defeats the whole purpose.

Matt: You got to reach down and grab that. That doesn't help anybody. This is my own product. I'm going to say that's terrible. That's a horrible experience. And so, we came back, and we said, “Yeah, we actually want a shoe. We want to build a shoe that it locks in. And then, what we learned is, there's actually some friction points when you lock it in.

So now, backstory. Actually, this is a great time to catch up to speed. We're now looking at a more injection-molding-based process, or metal stamped. We're looking at a couple overseas suppliers for that when the travel restrictions lift. We have, fortunately, in Holland, one of our advisors who started the Big Joe comfort research. Matt Young. They've sold $1 billion worth of bean bags. So, he's one of our advisors. And he's like, “Yeah, I'm gonna put you on a plane. We're going to go to China and get some suppliers who can take this thing and scale it.” So we're having some fun.

Ryan: Do you really want to make it in China?

Matt: Not really.

Ryan: I mean, can't we figure out a way to make it in the United States?

Matt: Offline conversation? Yes.

Ryan: Why does that have to be offline?

Matt: It's one of those things that I think we need to sort out how to do. The labor cost is the biggest problem. You can purchase injection moldings that work phenomenally well, that are relatively similar price. But then, the person who's managing that is seven times more expensive to do the same exact job.

Ryan: Right. But don't you think, in this day and age, post-COVID, post all the craziness we've had with Asia, that Americans would rather spend $5 extra on a Hopper Popper that was made in the United States?

Matt: I would hope so. I would. I mean, I'd rather buy something that's American-made and not be afraid to spend a little extra dollars on it.

Ryan: I don't think anybody's afraid of that. I don't think anybody's looking for the lowest possible price if they think that paying a little extra means it can be made in America.

Matt: So, I think, in order for that logic to work, it has to be a localized purchasing — like a buying experience. So, if I'm buying something in a mega store, I don't really care where it is made. But if I'm buying something from my local grocery store, or my local hardware store, then absolutely, I want it to be American-made.

Ryan: I don't think that's... I think that, if the Hopper Popper was able to say on its packaging, ‘manufactured parts, labor assembly, United States of America,’ I think that's worth five bucks.

Matt: I think so too.

Ryan: Do that.

Matt: Okay. Injection mold. Holland, Michigan. Or Atlanta, maybe.

Ryan: I’m serious. Let’s do it in Atlanta. We'll create a manufacturing base in Atlanta, and we'll source all of the materials in America. I think that's a better story in this day and age.

Matt: I'm in. Done.

Ryan: I think every American understands on a deeper level today that their economic decisions and spending have direct impact on their fellow Americans’ work opportunities.

Matt: I agree. My one thing that's demonstrated otherwise would be Amazon in the midst of the COVID world. Amazon has been, obviously, doing as well as Amazon's done — partially because people obviously don't want to go to the local grocery store when they can have it delivered to their house in a day. But I also think that the same people who are saying ‘I want to shop locally’ are the sme people ordering off of Amazon, which is really frustrating.

Ryan: But I don't think Amazon has... from an American zeitgeist perspective, Amazon became just a de-facto decision. And I don't think American psychology has caught up to thinking about where all the stuff from Amazon comes from.

Matt: Exactly. We're close.

Ryan: What I'm advocating for is, I think that there's opportunity in this country for products that can specifically call out that they are sourced, assembled, and manufactured in the United States of America. And we're at a time in the life of our country where that would mean something to people.

Matt: I hope so.

Ryan: Even if it's on Amazon. On the product description, they'd read it, and they’d think, “Oh, I hadn't really thought about where my stuff was manufactured.” I think there's a lot of stuff that we don't think about. And when it's called to our attention, then the question is, ‘are we psychologically ready to have it called to our attention?’ And I think at this moment in time, I think we're psychologically ready to have that call to our attention, and have it be valuable.

Matt: I think, for the first time, people are starting to actually realize the repercussions. ‘Businesses are closing because what I purchased is $2 cheaper online, versus $2 more expensive in the store.’ And I think that's one of the... obviously, nobody helps a pandemic happens, but I think that's one of the first times that it's been a smack to the face. ‘30% of businesses are closing because you aren't shopping.’ That is not somebody else's problem. That is your problem. You need to go to that restaurant, and not go to the major chain. I’m not saying that major chains are bad.

Ryan: But if you value it, then show that you value it. Don't just value it with lip service. But if you don't value it? Well, then, that's okay. It's America. Stuff fails every day.

Matt: Exactly right. But if you value it, spend your money there.

Ryan: I agree. So, the other side is no matter how good the Chinese solution sounds on the surface, I've yet to see a product that's manufactured in China that comes back and is better than what can be manufactured in America. Price aside.

Matt: Price aside, I 100% agree. And actually, I think Africa is 15 years away from being the modern-day China.

Ryan: Really?

Matt: So, if you think about it... this is a touch esoteric. But if you think about the industrial revolution in the United States, we went to China because labor costs started to rise, and started to rise, and started to rise. So we outsourced it over there. I think the same thing is actually happening with China outsourcing their expensive — relatively, for them — labor force to Africa, which has a resting population of tons of people who are looking for work. And I think, in the next 15 to 20 years, we're going to see a major shift of manufacturing surge in African countries.

Ryan: Where did you get this idea?

Matt: I don't know. I'm probably taking a shower one time, thinking about it.

Ryan: Oh, you were just thinking about it. You didn’t read it somewhere?

Matt: No, no, no. I was just thinking about it.

Ryan: Just thinking about the idea. I mean, does Africa have the kind of energy infrastructure to build out that kind of manufacturing base?

Matt: I don't know yet, but a lot of China was funded by the United States. A lot of Chinese manufacturing was funded by the United States — not necessarily directly. Like, “hey, let's subsidize your manufacturing. Let's subsidize your factories.” But literally saying, “Hey, we're going to make purchases that are going to happen there.” And that's when the infrastructure began to rise, right?

So much of the need of Chinese manufacturing goods came from United States dollars purchasing those. I think the same could be true — what happened with Chinese manufacturing saying, “hey, we're going to purchase or outsource the labor costs here, or we're just going to set up a factory and bring people in. Oh, wait, there's a lot of workforce we can get for cheaper here as well, too.”

Ryan: Sure. I mean, I think the complicating factor there is that the Chinese, despite whatever commentary we want to have about their type of government, have had a very stable government in a huge country that can finance all sorts of things because of its huge base. And I'm not sure if there's an African country that has enough stability or financial base to be able to finance things — that could then be the Shenzhen.

Matt: Good word choice.

Ryan: Right. The Shenzhen of Africa. I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong, but when you said that, I just started thinking. I was doing an inventory in my mind of all the countries in Africa, and I was trying to imagine who might be able to step into that role and be a Vietnam of Africa.

Matt: Right. I more think of it in the sense of, like, we're going to get to a point where we're seeking an idle workforce, and where is that next idle workforce? I think China was the idle workforce for the United States. I think Africa is going to be the idle workforce for China at some point — maybe not quickly.

Ryan: Do you think the Chinese don't have enough work? You think that? I mean, there's a lot of Chinese that aren't working.

Matt: I think what changes that is labor laws. And I don't know if the Chinese will implement any of that, but I think America outsourced to China because there wasn't the labor laws that made things so expensive. So I'd be curious what happens. I mean, I don't know. We'll see.

Ryan: Well, it's fascinating. I'd certainly love for us to find other sources of labor. But at the same time, I think there's so much labor — as long as we can keep our labor laws in check in the United States, that we don't become the failure that is the socialist governments in Europe, where it's almost impossible to fire somebody, even if they're failing miserably at their job. That's such a competitive disadvantage.

As long as we can avoid that kind of nonsense, then I don't know why we wouldn't spend the money to put Americans back to work at higher wages, and then just increase the prices. That's okay. We can all afford it. We don't need to be trying to save on the cost of a Hopper Popper. Is it $29.99 or is it $34.99? If I want a Hopper Popper, I'm going to buy a Hopper Popper. And in fact, I might feel even better about it if I know that it's made in Atlanta, Georgia or Holland, Michigan, and it's made not only in parts, but assembled in the United States. I think that that I'm not the only one who would feel great about that.

Matt: Exactly.

Ryan: All right. So, you learned that your pedals needed to be affixed — at least, at Blackhall, we needed that, because the Hopper Popper becomes not usable if the pedal is on the floor, because then I have to pick up the pedal and it defeats the whole purpose.

Matt: It defeats the whole purpose of not touching anything.

Ryan: What else have you learned? Because the first prototypes, I will say, are manufactured very, very well. Great metal. Everything is high quality. So, from that standpoint, I bet you have gotten all good feedback.

Matt: Yeah. Our feedback on that... It was designed with a heavy utility focus. So, let's make this thing work. Right? The ‘round two’ that we're going through is, now, ‘how do we make this thing look sexy?’ When you look at it, it looks mechanical. It looks like it is something that you actually manufactured and made — which is great. But to take that to the consumer market...

Part of this conversation relates to the fact that we've basically identified three different markets. There's the direct consumer. You, buying it for your own home. You've got the commercial market: places like Blackhall, or hotels, or whatever they may be. And then you have the medical market. The medical market gets a little finicky with ES and a lot of different regulations. There’s a lot of red tape, but bigger money in it. You could charge 200 bucks for it if it fits all their different rules that you need to have and regulations that they have. But what we're now working through is, how do we turn it from a prototype well-made to, now, ‘looks awesome’?

Ryan: Now, why do you think that my toilet seat popper needs to be sexy?

Matt: I don't think it needs to be sexy. I think you need to have it not look like... I think the best way to say this is, it doesn't need to look sexy, but it needs to either be low-profile or doesn't look mechanical. I think the mechanical makes it stick out in a bad way, whereas if you can create it to be lower-profile, I think that that adds a lot of value as well.

One of the major things, on that note, that we're talking about is having the seat go all the way up and having the seat come all the way back down. But that requires two different pedals or some force that requires it to come back down. So, the problem with that is, either you're getting into two different pedals — that makes it higher-profile; maybe that's a problem, maybe that's not. Or you're creating, like, a seesaw, almost — that basically says, ‘I push one side, raises it up; push the other side, it comes back down.’ So that's certainly something that we're considering as well, but just a little bit of a bigger profile of something that sits there.

Ryan: I kind of like that. A seesaw. So then you have one side that says ‘up.’ And one side that says ‘down.’ But it's affixed to the floor. You walk up, and you step on the up arrow. And it goes all the way up. And then when you're finished, if you're a gentleman, then you press the down arrow.

Matt: Emphasis on the ‘gentleman.’ Right. So, when we've done product feedback interviews with people who have bought the product that we didn't... you know, it wasn't my mom trying to support me. But when we've done genuine product feedback, what people have said is, the biggest value that it gains is it actually encourages somebody to put the seat back down. So, that is a huge selling point to moms.

Ryan: Wait, wait. What encourages them to put the seat back down?

Matt: When you raise it all the way up, and it's something that doesn't push it all the way back, but you press it down, and it raises partially up...

Ryan: Up three quarters. And then it automatically goes back down. That’s better for moms.

Matt: Moms love that. And so, now we’ve finally started talking to a bunch of different people. And they've come back and said, “Not only does this make me not have to pee on the seat anymore, but also, it automatically is a reason the toilet seat comes back down.”

Ryan: Although, if mom doesn't have to touch the toilet seat, does she care if it's up?

Matt: No. I don't know if I can answer that, as I’m not a mother.

Ryan: I think maybe they still care.

Matt: I think they do.

Ryan: You don't care. I don't care if I walk up to the toilet and the toilet seat’s down.

Matt: I know I have a sister and a mother who have nagged at me for 26 years of my life for leaving the toilet seat up. And so, I think if I automatically had something — that's worth whatever the price point is for me, not to get nagged at by my mom and sister.

Ryan: Trust me. I mean, I grew up in a house with one brother, a dad who is an ex-recon Marine, and a mother who grew up on a cattle ranch in Nebraska. So, I had an ex-girlfriend who worked for years to try to train me on this — putting the toilet seat down.

Matt: It wasn't going to happen.

Ryan: God, it was terrible. It was like an ongoing joke. I mean, for her, it was frustrating, but for me, it was an ongoing joke.

Matt: Oh, you’d intentionally leave it up.

Ryan: No, no, no, no, I'm not that bad. It might be worse that I couldn't get it through my brain to pay attention.

Matt: Well, that's when we start to think, maybe, that the ‘sexiness’ isn't the term, but the profile of the product, the user experience of the product, and what that looks like is something that now we're spending a lot of effort and energy on — to say “how can we make this look as if it fits into the bathroom already?” We want people to look at it and know what it is, but not look so out of place. How can we make it fit into the restroom experience, but also functionally work really well too?

Ryan: I think that it'd be worth doing a little bit of study from a female perspective, and some testing around this question of whether or not women would be annoyed if they walked into the bathroom and the toilet seat was up, but they could step on a button and have the toilet seat come down, and they didn't have to touch anything.

Matt: Would they still be mad at the man?

Ryan: Would they still be mad at the man? Because the Hopper Popper, as it works today — I like it. I like the three-quarters. I'm fine with it, but I know some people want it to go all the way up. And so, all the way up is psychologically easy for everyone, right? I can take the three quarters, but if it was all the way up, it wouldn't bother me. So then, the real question then becomes, is it annoying for the woman?

Matt: If it's left all the way up?

Ryan: If it's left all the way up — but they don't have to touch it. They just have to step on the button that says ‘bring the toilet seat back down.’ I don't know, I think that's worth exploring.

Matt: Let's remove the household husband-wife interaction. And let's say I walk into a public unisex restroom. That thing's all the way up. I've got nobody to be mad at other than the person I didn't know who was in there beforehand. Now I can walk in.

Ryan: But why am I mad if I just have to step on a button and it goes back down?

Matt: You're not anymore.

Ryan: That's what I think.

Matt: Solved.

Ryan: All right; so, right now, that's not the way. Right now, it's still three-quarter. What else have you evolved from the original design?

Matt: Those are the biggest ones we're working on right now. The sleekness factor is a big one. And then, also, just the other minor things we can do to quantitatively understand the cleaning factor. So, for example, do you put the actual pedal around a plastic bubble? One of the grossest parts about the restroom is actually the flush. When you flush, stuff sprays everywhere. Within a six-feet radius of any toilet flush, you're going to get debris on stuff. That's why you never want to have your toothbrush.

Ryan: Come on.

Matt: So, I work in H.R. And I work in toilets.

Ryan: But it has to be below the rim of the toilet.

Matt: No, that's the gross part. It sprays.

Ryan: Come on.

Matt: So, what we've talked about, for example — and that's why it makes zero sense that commercial toilets don't have a lid.

Ryan: Does the CDC know about this?

Matt: They sure do. They just came out with an article that mentions how aerosol spray — when you clean the toilet with aerosol spray — it sprays out. So, all of a sudden, you’ve got aerosol all over the walls. It's a six-foot radius of a flush. So, what we've talked about is, do we potentially have...

Ryan: We are ruining a lot of people's days right now.

Matt: I know. Sorry about that. I hope everybody's having a good day. Shouldn't tell them to follow me on social, because I don’t want to get ripped on.

Ryan: I'll definitely give your social media later.

Matt: Exactly, exactly.

Ryan: Nightmares for the people that are germaphobes.

Matt: And that's what we're here trying to solve. One thing that makes zero sense is why commercial toilets don't have a lid.

Ryan: I need six feet of distancing from the toilet?

Matt: When it flushes.

Ryan: Wow.

Matt: So, that's why you don't want to have an exposed toothbrush next to the sink of the bathroom.

Ryan: I think I've been living with this problem for decades.

Matt: It's why your breath always smells bad.

Ryan: That's why I'm so healthy. My immune system is robust.

Matt: Exactly. That's why you probably didn’t get COVID. It’s just because you've been dealing with the flush of the toilet all the time.

Ryan: Only because my toothbrush is so dirty.

Matt: I don't want to talk about your toothbrush anymore.

Ryan: Let's talk about how you're going to solve my bad breath.

Matt: I'm in.

Ryan: All right. So, keep going on this. I'm kind of freaking out a little bit about the six-foot radius, but keep going about what that has to do with the Hopper Popper. Are you going to try to close the lid? You're going to try to create something closes the lid as well as the seat?

Matt: Well, it's more an educational standpoint. If your argument is related to cleaning, you need to solve the lid problem. So, if you're a commercial restroom, you should buy a bunch of lids. Or, we've talked about potentially coming up with a prototype that has the lid built in. So, when you're purchasing the Hopper Popper, you're also buying a lid that automatically comes on.

So, for your commercial problem you're saying, “oh, I've got 90 toilets sitting at Blackhall. 87 of them don't have a lid anymore.” Awesome. We can solve your problem by saying, “Hey, we're going to have a built in... something related to that.” I mean, that's one option.

Ryan: But, doesn't the lid just make the seat more contaminated?

Matt: What the lid does is, it contains the spray to the seat — which then is cleaned. One would hope.

Ryan: Well, let's think about that for a second. Imagine I've got a lid — I don't have the lid, I just have the seat. And I've got this six-foot spray radius. I guess I'm still getting debris on the seat, but if I put the lid on, then doesn't all the debris stay on the seat?

Matt: Yep. But it limits the cleaning, and at least isolates the cleaning.

Ryan: Got it. It isolates the cleaning. Man. The seat is a lot dirtier than I imagined.

Matt: Oh my goodness, bathrooms are disgusting.

Ryan: Wow. Okay, so, so what's the what's your sense right now about lids or no lids on the Hopper Popper?

Matt: What we're trying to sort out is, does the majority of our product benefit come into the commercial space or come into the residential space? And not that we can't straddle; not that we can't do both. But they just have different needs. If we're talking about the majority of in-person toilets — or, sorry. The majority of consumer-based toilets already have lids. Very different problem set. And people are less concerned about cleaning the pedal in that circumstance. That, we can solve. We can be the product we exactly need to be in the commercial or in the residential space by having to come all the way up and all the way down to pedals. Done.

Ryan: Why do you think they originally put lids on residential toilets? Was it for sanitation or was it for aesthetics? And is a lid as annoying to a woman? I guess it wouldn't be as annoying; like, sitting on the lid wouldn't be as annoying as falling in the toilet.

Matt: Honestly, my bet on the lid reaction is that somebody walked into the bathroom and didn't want to see somebody else's streaks.

Ryan: Until they had to lift the lid.

Matt: Until they had to lift the lid.

Ryan: But then, they only have to lift the lid if they have to use the toilet. So they'll live with it, right?

Matt: That would be my guess. I actually have no good... that'd be worth looking up. But my reaction to that would be: I'm going in to wash my hands, into a nice fancy restroom, and I don't want to look over to somebody else's streaks sitting there without intentionally going to use it.

Ryan: I can't remember the last restaurant restroom I would have gone into that had toilet seats, or had toilet covers. They had seats, but no covers.

Matt: Yeah; no commercial bathroom, no commercial toilet, has a lid.

Ryan: You're just saying that this was an aesthetic marketing tool to housewives. This is your speculation.

Matt: That's my speculation.

Ryan: Interesting. I'd love to know the history there.

Matt: That's the rabbit hole we're about to go down. And then, at some point to go through and research that.

Ryan: No, you should go through that. And, I mean, you went down the rabbit hole of the six foot spray.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. What we were trying to understand is, what's the grossest part about the toilet? Underside of a lid.

Ryan: The underside of the lid is the grossest.

Matt: It’s disgusting. And so, what we learn is, why do you have to clean the pedal? Why does a janitor have to come in and clean the Hopper Popper if it's not getting gross other than dirt from somebody's shoe? That's a different problem than actual, like... yeah, poop. Right? But when you flush, and it sprays, and there's no lid on the commercial toilet, then you're actually having to clean something of worthiness. So we went down that rabbit hole to understand that.

Ryan: Got it. So, the Hopper Popper does add an element of work to the janitor.

Matt: That's exactly right. And so, what we're trying to do is create the product so that it can reduce entirely the need to clean the actual pedal. One of the things we're talking about, as far as your quote-unquote “sexiness,” is, do we put something that potentially is a bubble that goes over the pedal so that when your foot is underneath it, it's all protected by the plastic? So, when you go and clean it, it's just one clean wipe over a bubble? Something like that.

Ryan: As long as it doesn't make the functionality worse.

Matt: Exactly.

Ryan: Because I really think that this is function over form. So I hear you're, like, wanting to make it sleek. But fundamentally, what I don't want is, I don't want it to be any more complicated to try to slide my foot into some wedged position.

Matt: Yeah, you don't... Hey, good use of ‘Wedge.’ Way to marry both of my lives together. I actually had one of the best things in my life happen. I was on a call with a partner for Wedge, and they said, “hey, little uncomfortable. I hope you're okay with me asking,” and I'm willing. I'll talk about anything. So, it was like, “I hope you're okay with me asking, but I see that you're also in the toilet business. Can we talk about that?”

This woman is giving a speech around hygiene in the organization from an HR perspective. So she was coming to me as a de facto person for advice, because of my HR tech background and my bathroom background. So I think I've...

Ryan: That's a well-rounded resume. Well, let's talk about that a little bit. What do you think ‘nature versus nurture’ for an entrepreneur... I'm always interested in exploring the psychology of an entrepreneur. What leads someone to want to live this life? What do you attribute to it? Do you think you were born with this gene; this entrepreneurial gene? Or do you think it was traumatized into you?

Matt: I mean, you and I have talked about this offline. I like your answer on the comment of freedom. Right? You seek freedom in so much of what you want to do. I think my first taste for entrepreneurship was mowing 2 or 3 lawns and making more money than I could on a whole Wendy's shift. Right? I could go make — being outside, listening to music, sitting on a lawn mower — 100 bucks, mowing three lawns, than I could going to work a weekend shift of something I don't want to do. So, there was nothing glamorous or super thoughtful or anything related to that.

But then I started to realize I can legitimately have my own canvas of what I want to go create. So I think maybe, where you err on the side of viewing the world in freedom, I err on the side of thinking of, like, “I now have no limitations of what I can create.” One day I can spend time thinking about HR tech, right? And it's a software company. With Wedge, we're talking about stepping into the medtech space — interacting between patients and doctors and asynchronous video. I have no limitations to have those conversations. One day we can be talking about how to commercialize the Hopper Popper and go to China and produce it, or whatever.

To me, such a joy of the entrepreneur experience is that I have zero limitations. Yes, freedom. But it's like truly creating, and it can be any number of different things. Now, I have 100 ideas, and probably two of them are worth talking about. But I'm saying it's the freedom to be able to speak about so many different things; pursue so many different ideas. That's what gets me fired up.

Ryan: So, I think that every entrepreneur not only has something they're running towards... I hear you saying, “I'm running towards creativity; I'm running towards imagination.” But I think every entrepreneur also has things that are running from. What do you think you're running from?

Matt: I knew at some point, something like this was going to come up. So I was trying to do the best I possibly could to prepare. But that’s in no way possible. I think it’s just being contained. Like, I get really, really, freaked out in a circumstance where I feel limited.

I don't necessarily mind not always having control. For example, if you and I were doing business together, I would be comfortable if you were in control, but I would not be comfortable if I felt contained. Right? Those are two very different things, and I think they’re often misunderstood. So I think, on the trauma question, I don't know if there's any family back-history or anything like that. But I think the biggest thing for me is, I just can't feel like I'm in an environment where I feel like I'm being contained.

Undergraduate education — I wish I could go back and do it, because the whole time, I felt contained, whereas I actually could have pursued it as a creative way to learn. But I didn't think about that at the time. I was thinking about it like, “This is a mold. This is what you have to go through. This is the process you have to get done; as soon as you're done, you check the box. You're done; over with.” That was miserable. Education was fine. I got through it. But I wish I could go back and rethink it the way I think about entrepreneurship — saying, “I can go create, I can go learn.” That side of things. So I think the biggest thing that I'm running away from is just the concept of anything that's going to contain me.

Ryan: What did you study in college?

Matt: I was in economics, management, and leadership. That was my education.

Ryan: So you hated your education; in many ways, you were just grinding it out. If you could go back and have a conversation with your 18 year old self — say, you're about to go to college — what are you telling him?

Matt: Read to learn, not to get a grade.

Ryan: So, what do you study?

Matt: I actually loved what I studied. I actually think that was a great choice. I think I probably would have added some form of either psychology — like, I've thought about potentially going and getting my PhD in I/O psychology. Not necessarily to use it, but because that's fascinating to me.

Ryan: What kind of psychology?

Matt: Industrial/organizational psychology. That stuff's fascinating t me. I think I would have paired... like, behavioral economics, for example, is combining psychology and economics. That would be a joy. I wish I would have studied a thesis just on that alone. Or game theory in econ.

Ryan: Do you study that stuff now?

Matt: When I default to listening to podcasts, stuff like that is what I listen to a lot.

Ryan: Game theory and the psychology of economics?

Matt: You and I both committed a crime, and a cop pulls us into the room. You benefit from lying. I benefit from lying. We benefit the most if we both tell the truth. And so you throw us in a room. You have a desire to not tell the truth, as long as I do tell the truth. But if we both lie, then we both go to jail for an extended time. I mean, it’s understanding the psychology of people — but that's also how they make purchasing decisions. That's also how partnerships happen. That stuff gets me going.

Ryan: You love that stuff. All right. What kind of advice do you give to younger entrepreneurs than you? I mean, you're a young entrepreneur, but I'm sure that, because you've had success, people are coming to you. You're the Entrepreneur of the Year in Grand Rapids this year. So, what are you telling the young Grand Rapids kids who are like, “Man, how’d you do it?”

Matt: I think my advice — and this is still a reminder to myself today — so much of my success came from other people supporting me. So, for example, you. The relationship we've gained; the wisdom that I've learned from you as an entrepreneur; successes and failures in your experience. That is an invaluable level of education. There’s no book I could ever read; other than just spending time with you.

So I think, for me, what I did throughout school that I'm super proud of is, twice a week I met with two new people. I met with two new people a week, every single week. And I still try to do that today — whether it's phone calls... It's one of the reasons why I started my own podcast. I can just literally sit and learn, and soak in information, and that sort of thing.

So, my recommendation to young entrepreneurs — or quite frankly, just anybody in general — is to go meet two new people a week. That's where I learn. I learn from other people. I learn from interactions where some people may learn from studying or listening; I learn from just hearing stories from people. And then, the network effect. You start building a bigger and bigger and bigger empire of people that you know, and that creates a very valuable path that you can launch a business; start something. I mean, that gets really fun.

Ryan: Who are some of the entrepreneurs that you most admire?

Matt: Well, since you've referenced my award, I was going to say you — but I don't think I can give you that ego anymore. No; I would say you would be one. My uncle, who owns the manufacturer, is definitely one — because he was, like, 4 a.m. to 7 p.m. every day and always made it back to his kids’ basketball games. I mean, he just... You couldn't outwork him. He may not have been the smartest. He may not have been the most resourceful, but you could not outwork him. So, somebody like that, I have a huge amount of respect for.

There's a guy named Wade Burgess, who's one of our investors and advisors, who is somebody who has found a way to juggle being a dad who's juggled being an entrepreneur. He's an advisor, and still will take my call every time I need his help. And I have a huge amount of respect for him. I also think, like...

Ryan: How about famous entrepreneurs?

Matt: I do love Musk, because... I don't really care all that much about Tesla. That's awesome. I think they're going to change the world. But I love how straight-up he is. If you listen to his podcast he did with Rogan, Rogan asked him a question. He's talking about digging a pit in one of their LA parking lots, and Rogan's like, “Whose approval did you have to go get to dig this major hole in LA? You had to get permits.”

He's like, “No, I just dug a pit,” and he's like, “No, no. Who did you have to talk to? What building?” He's like, “I just did it.”  That is... if I could rethink that, reimagine that over and over again, I think it’s one of the coolest things. He is going to, no matter what, accomplish what he wants. The grit, the focus; the kind of blinders of ‘this is exactly what I'm going to go do’ is, I think, just absolutely phenomenal.

I wrote this article, and one of the things I was talking about was, I actually would rather meet Jeff Bezos’s assistant than Jeff Bezos, to be honest.

Ryan: Why is that?

Matt: I think Jeff Bezos is super well-documented. I think everything you're going to ask him or hear about him is pretty cliche. I'm not saying he isn't brilliant, or wouldn't be awesome to meet with. But I'd love to meet with the person who keeps up with him and hear that. I think in sports, for example, I think a defensive back is a more impressive position than a wide receiver, because wide receiver takes a first step, but defensive back has to react to it. So, I think the same thing with somebody's assistant.

I'd rather learn from that person, because they're going to give you... maybe not publicly. But they're going to give you the raw of, like, “This is what this person actually interacts with. This is what this person...” Not just their world’s interpretation, but actually how they interact with other people; how they actually... Does he actually work 20 hours a day? Or does he really only work six hours a day? Because I think that would be fascinating, to spend time with somebody like that.

Ryan: If his assistant would tell you any of those things, that assistant should be fired.

Matt: Exactly. Right. They're not going to. But that's why I think I would love to learn from somebody like that.

Ryan: You'd like the candid, behind-the-scenes version. Really, though, you just want the candid, behind-the-scenes version of Bezos. I bet people get that. I mean, I don't think you can be that level of a successful human without having a really deep self-awareness.

Matt: Really. Do you think Musk is self-aware?

Ryan: I think Musk is very self-aware.

Matt: Oh, I would almost say the opposite. I would say he's incredibly un-self-aware.

Ryan: Well, he's not diplomatic.

Matt: Sure.

Ryan: Tell me what you mean by self-aware.

Matt: I guess the crossroads I have here is, like, “Does this person have any regard for the way that they're interpreted in the world? Do they understand?” When I'm in this room, if I say something and you raise an eyebrow, I actually at least care enough to think about that. Whereas I don't think Musk cares about that at all. Now, I love that he doesn't, because I think he's going to accomplish some amazing things. But I would say...

Ryan: But is not caring about what other people think not self-aware?

Matt: Not necessarily. I do agree with you on that.

Ryan: I think Elon is incredibly self-aware. He just doesn't necessarily care how who he is affects you. He doesn't take responsibility for that. He takes responsibility for knowing himself and choosing accordingly. Is that fair, or do you think that's a bad read of him?

Matt: I think that's fair. I mean I also don't think we're, as people, very good at actually going back to our memory and experience and articulating what we truly feel. So, think about your career — the most highs, and the most stressed you've ever been. Do you think you would be capable of actually pulling what you were feeling; how you reacted? Your stress; the success you experienced? Do you think you'd be able to actually articulate that to somebody else to come in?

Ryan: 100%, yes.

Matt: I don't think many people can. I think, even as I go back to some of my experiences, I can share the story of what I've processed and how I processed it. But I don't think that would actually be all that accurate. That'd be my guess.

Ryan: So you don't think that you have personal self-awareness of what you're actually feeling?

Matt: I think my three-year, four-year, five-year storytelling capability changes. I think people, when they look back on, for example, traumatic experience — and I would consider a lot of like entrepreneurship traumatic, to be honest.

Ryan: You’d better love trauma if you want to be an entrepreneur.

Matt: That's the whole point. And, specifically, talking about that experience; not necessarily other things in life, but thinking of your entrepreneur experience as trauma. The whole thing; highs and lows of trauma. I don't think people do that good a job of going back to trauma and actually being able to flesh out what they were experiencing at the time accurately enough to depict to somebody else what they were feeling. Jury's still out on how I feel about that.

Ryan: I think that's really interesting, because when I think of the people that I consider to be the best entrepreneurs, I think they have really deep self-awareness. Really deep self-awareness about those specific things you're talking about — which is the traumas that impacted them, and how they felt about those experiences, both in their youth and in their adult lives — and having a deep awareness of what they want to change in the world, mostly for their own emotional needs. That results in entrepreneurial activity that has drive. I think that drive, at the core, is a desire to change the world into what you emotionally want it to be.

Matt: The ‘emotionally want it to be’ is a really interesting thing to think about there. Do you think Bezos and Musk think about the world as ‘this is the world that I want to create,’ as in people experiencing that world? Or do you think it's, ‘I want humans to have access to electric cars across all humanity?’

Ryan: Well, I think there's a difference between the messaging, and even the philosophy. Because, from Musk, you'll hear a lot of philosophy. But I would bet that if you could catch him in a candid moment, when he felt safe — he felt like you were a safe human being to reveal his true humanity to? I would venture to believe that he could articulate what was driving him emotionally to change the world into what he's changed it into, and what he's continuing to try to change it into. Because otherwise, he wouldn't have the motivation to get up in the morning. I don't believe that ideas and thoughts and logic are motivation.

Matt: I agree with that. That fades out pretty quickly.

Ryan: Right. That's unsustainable. You have to have a passion. And passion really is born from a deep hunger; a deep desire to make your life different. That's what we love about all these movies about people overcoming trauma. You know; Braveheart and 300, right? Gladiator. They overcome trauma, and then they're emotionally driven to eradicate or transform. And we relate to that. And I think that, if we think entrepreneurs are robots, then we're not thinking about entrepreneurs in the right way.

Matt: Yeah. I, in my own experience, find entrepreneurs to be remarkably emotional people. It's not always seen, but I think the heart of every entrepreneur is actually pretty emotional. I think that definitely exists. And I would say those guys experience that, for sure.

Ryan: Right? So now — in this definition of self-awareness — do we think Elon is self-aware? Again, not knowing Elon. We're totally speculating based on all our public experience of Elon Musk.

Matt: Yeah. I don't think, if he was sitting in the room, he would be uninterested in you. I think he would sit in the room and be interested. I think he would be interested in you as a person. I think he'd be fascinated by, for example, what you built here. I don't think he’d be uninterested.

Ryan: Well, again, that's very different — whether he's interested me, I'm not sure if he would give anything, or care at all about my life or Blackhall Studios or any of the tiny little entrepreneurial things I've done relative to his gargantuan achievements.

Matt: I don't think this always equates, but this is definitely turning the conversation in a dicey way. I think social awareness doesn't always... So many entrepreneurs get divorces, for example, and I think that's a huge reason why they aren't that social, or that they aren't very socially aware. It’s because, maybe — and I’m not pointing to anyone in particular — but maybe, for example, even the thought of “Hey, what are the repercussions of getting married? What are the repercussions of only spending an hour a week with my spouse?” I think that's one of the reasons why I probably wouldn't consider it. Now, just because you have a happy marriage doesn't necessarily mean you're not a socially aware person. I don't want to necessarily draw those two things together.

Ryan: Or that you get divorced doesn't mean you're necessarily socially unaware.

Matt: Exactly right.

Ryan: You might be totally aware of exactly what you're doing.

Matt: Right? 100%.

Ryan: So now it's an emotional question. What do you value more? Do you value your entrepreneurial journey more, or your marriage more.

Matt: So then, do you think... let's take that a step further. Do you think those guys felt pain by going through the divorce? Do you think Jeff Bezos — actually, leading up to that — do you think he felt pained by the divorce process?

Ryan: Well, all divorce has pain. So I can't imagine anybody getting divorced and not having pain — whether or not they had pain about not living with their spouse. That's completely different. So, I think lots of people get married and feel joy about not having to spend any more time with that person who was once their spouse. And I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff and/or Elon felt those feelings — where they felt incredible relief about not having to continue living their lives with someone that they didn't find emotionally gratifying, or emotionally joy-inducing. Right?

But at the same time, you can't go through divorce and not have pain. So they must have believed — again, emotionally believing — they must have emotionally believed that not being married to that person would give them a greater chance at actual human happiness.

Matt: And that's where you can always play the ‘you should have done, you could have done.’ Hindsight is one of the dumbest things in the world. But that's where I go back, and I wonder to myself if those two guys, for example — we’re focusing on those two — if they were socially aware enough to recognize bringing somebody else into their life; if they could do that appropriately or not. Whether it's what they gained, or what they thought they were gaining, from that person faded out two years later, ten years later, 15, 25 years, whatever the timeline is. Or just the idea of, “Hey, this person has come into my life, and I have to change that to come into that person.”

Ryan: Do this thought experiment with me. Let's say you get married. And let's say you've been married for nine years. At the end of nine years, your spouse comes in and says, “Matt, I think my chance at happiness, real human happiness, is better if we get divorced.” What do you say?

Matt: The first thing... I'd think it would be impossible. I guess, knowing myself — whether I know myself well or not — the first thing I would ask myself is, “What led up to that? And is there anything that is in my control that could be fixed?”

Ryan: So, now, we're doing this thought experiment. You're saying to your spouse... She says, “I think that I have a better chance at real human happiness if we get divorced,” and you say, “What could I have done differently?”

Matt: Correct.

Ryan: What else do you say?

Matt: Well, I'd first want to explore...

Ryan: Are you wanting to try to save this?

Matt: Yeah.

Ryan: So, is that the first thing you say? “I would like to try to save our marriage.”

Matt: For sure.

Ryan: So then, what's the second thing?

Matt: I’ve got to give you the bias. I have not been married. I haven't experienced this.

Ryan: That's why it's a thought experiment.

Matt: Exactly. It's easy for me to come into this very naively and say, “This is exactly what my go-to reaction is.” My first reaction would be, “Yeah, let's try to save this.” But even first, before that — even if she says, “No matter what, here's the paperwork. I'm out the door” — my first reaction would be “How could I have done this differently?” Even if there is no saving grace here. No matter what, that's my first reaction.

Ryan: Why do you think your first reaction isn't, “Honey, if you think your human happiness has a better chance of being achieved by getting divorced, then I think we should get divorced?”

Matt: Selfishly, because I'm going to interact with somebody else. Whether it's a marriage, whether it's a business partner, or whether it's just people. My first reaction is, “I caused, in some way, shape or form, you pain?” Now, whether it's a two-way street, I caused you at least not enough happiness in your life. I should figure out: is there anything I could have done better to improve that?

Ryan: And I'm, again, playing your future wife. I say...

Matt: You wouldn't make a great future wife.

Ryan: No, I’d be terrible.

Matt: Yeah. It's his breath; that's the problem.

Ryan: So, let's imagine. I say, “Listen, Matt, it's nothing you've done. You've been an amazing husband. I just realized that I probably should have never been married, because I'm an adventuring single person at the core of my soul. And being married has felt so limiting to my soul. And I don't want you to take any personal responsibility for this. I feel like you've done an amazing job relative to our marriage. I just feel like I'm being asked by the universe to seek a different happiness.”

Matt: One of my greatest gifts is the ability to compartmentalize. I think that's a unique gift to me, that I can compartmentalize things super well. I am not mature enough to be able to compartmentalize that, if somebody were to say that to me. That would bleed into everything that I've done. And I would ask myself, again — even if that was the statement — I would ask myself, “What could I have improved in that circumstance, or maybe even further back?” Again; beginning to assume what trauma would have happened. I would have even asked myself, “What did I miss?”

Ryan: Of course; no, I understand that.

Matt: For example, I've got an ex-employee that I fired. I still can't, to this day, remove some of the “What did I miss?” And also, “How was I a bad leader that didn't set that person up for success?” That's one area I'm not able to compartmentalize. So I guess my answer to that question is... I don't know if that person in their life straight-up said, “There's no way I could be happy, not miserable, married to you — and I need to move on.” And I had no choice in that process. I don't think, no matter what, I'd be able to accept that in my own heart, and say there isn't something I could have done, or “I had to have done something better; I could have done something better.”

Ryan: So, when we talk about the Hopper Popper, right — its first edition being not perfect. And the 2.0 getting better, and the 3.0 getting better. You don't seem to take any of that personally.

Matt: One of the most borderline — I'll call this trauma, but, like, borderline shaky reactions — was when I had an employee mow the first lawn for the company, and they didn't do a good job.

Ryan: Are you a perfectionist?

Matt: I don't think so.

Ryan: I don't think so, either. I mean, I don't think perfectionists make good entrepreneurs.

Matt: No, not at all.

Ryan: There’s too much failure and ugliness.

Matt: I think I take obsessive ownership over things.

Ryan: How much of that is virtue, and how much of that is ego?

Matt: I don't know; what's your interpretation of that? You know me well enough by now.

Ryan: Well, I think... are you 26 now?

Matt: 26.

Ryan: You're 26. So, it'd be shocking if some of it wasn’t ego. Because it'd be incredibly rare. You're an incredibly rare 26-year-old already; the things you're doing. But from a psychological standpoint, it would be the incredibly rare 26-year-old who wasn't doing a lot of things out of ego.

Matt: Yep. I think I'm still on the rise of my career that I'm trying to gain my own steam, for sure.

Ryan: Well, I think you have incredibly good instincts towards true entrepreneurial virtue, which is a desire for excellence. Excellence for its own sake, or excellence for creativity, or excellence for imagination. All of these beautiful ways of imagining entrepreneurial life. But, when I hear your response to your wife saying, “I think my happiness might be in a different direction,” that response feels more ego-driven than when I say “The Hopper Popper needs to be attached to the floor in order to be better.” I don't hear an ego response. You're like, “all right, let's make it better.”

What's surprising to me — and I think what's worth psychologically exploring — is why your response in this thought experiment of your wife wouldn't be, “Hey, let's make it better. If you think you know how to make your life better, I'm all for it. I'm for you.”

Matt: I think one of my biggest fears as an entrepreneur is starting a bunch of companies that fail without me. And it's not that I need to hold on to them — but I think that's one thing that I'm going through. Like, for example: Wedge, at some point, is going to be acquired by somebody else. So I'm spending all of my energy setting it up to be a machine that doesn't require me anymore.

I think one of my biggest fears, though, is that the business holds up because of me in the business. How can I build the business so that it no longer needs me in the business, and it's a machine? If you're not at Blackhall tomorrow, it's going to still be here, right?

Ryan: It runs like a machine.

Matt: Exactly. And so, I think one thing that I'm spending so much of my energy on — probably fear-driven — is that I don't want to create a bunch of things that, as soon as I’ve had my success and moved on from it, they just fell on their face, deflated, blah, blah, blah. That to me is an appropriate, but a genuine fear.

Ryan: Makes sense. Tell me one thing that would make you incredibly happy if you woke up on your 30th birthday and it was true.

Matt: Be recording volume two of the podcast with Ryan Millsap. I think, Lord willing, I would love to be married. I'd love to have a couple kids. I think, also, I would love to be involved — whether it's one or many; it doesn't that doesn't matter to me, one or many — where I have true influence over businesses. And I think I'm quite frankly pretty close to that now.

But I think that, to me — I love what I do, and I'm super fortunate that, at a pretty young age, I'm able to do some of that stuff. But I think the next step — where, probably, the ego removes — is, how can I set up myself to create that for other people? I mean, for example: Blackhall alone, just buying a bunch of Hopper Poppers. You have encouraged me to do that in my own life, right? You have encouraged one step towards the Hopper Popper succeeding and me creating something. I want to do that with as many different companies as I possibly can — or people. It doesn't necessarily have to be companies, but people. That, to me, would be cool.

Ryan: Matty, we're out of time. I'll tell you what: you have a huge future as an entrepreneur. You're going to be a fantastic father. And I can't wait to see all of your practical journey; psychological journey. And it's a privilege to call you a friend.

Matt: Right back at you. Thank you for having me.

Ryan: If people want to find you on social media, where can they find you?

Matt: LinkedIn — just Matt Baxter. I have a podcast. Ryan has been a guest twice on the Matt Baxter Show. Super creative. I guess, if you really want to follow my dog pictures on Instagram, you can. @MattCBaxter. And that's it.

Ryan: I love it. Actually, Matt's podcast, I think, was the first podcast... but it might have been Sarah's podcast, the first podcast I was on.

Matt: Really?

Ryan: Yeah. I can't remember. Well, one of those ways is how the Blackhall Studios Podcast emerged. It was just being on Matt's podcast, talking about a bunch of stuff; Matt encouraging me, saying “You guys should have a podcast,” helping me set this up. Talking to Sarah, who's our producer. And here we are.

Matt: Here we are.

Ryan: The world is small, and everything comes back around. Well, thanks again for being here. And I really appreciate your time. I can't wait to go have dinner with you tonight.

Matt: Can't wait.

Ryan: All right. Talk to you soon.

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Ryan: Putting an exclamation point on the end of each podcast, I share inspirational sayings that I write on Instagram. “Never confuse the value of a present situation with eternal love.”

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.