Rodney Ho Takes the Helm and Hosts Ryan Millsap on the Blackhall Podcast

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap. I got into the moviemaking business by being a real estate entrepreneur, but also because I'm a big movie fan. I get a huge kick out of watching blockbuster movies that I watch being made at Blackhall. COVID-19 has put a temporary crimp in production — hasn't it for everybody? But some amazing movies will be shooting at our studio soon, and I'll have some amazing folks on the podcast.

I'm also into ethics and philosophy, and I think you'll see those themes throughout the podcast. So, you're wondering: where exactly does the movie business and philosophy come together? That's the journey I want to take you on on the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I’ll bring you guests from both worlds, and I think you'll be surprised at how much philosophy goes into the world of making movies. Plus, you'll get an inside look at the new Hollywood of the South right here in Atlanta, Georgia. Give a listen. I think you'll enjoy what you hear. I'm happy to have you along for the ride on the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

Today on the podcast, the tables have turned. I welcome Atlanta Journal-Constitution entertainment reporter Rodney Ho to the show. And instead of it being my job to ask the questions, I'm handing the reins over to Rodney, who will take the lead on the interview. Let's see what Rodney discovered about me and about Blackhall Studios. Thanks for listening. I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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Rodney: Hey, this is Rodney Ho from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. I am here with the Blackhall Studios Podcast. And instead of Ryan helming this, we're going to reverse things. Me, as a reporter — I'm going to ask him all the questions, and he's going to have to answer them. That's a threat, right? I know; it's so frightening, isn't it? Anyway, we've talked several times before, and this is the first time I've seen you face to face since the pandemic started.

Ryan: This is only our second post-COVID live podcast.

Rodney: Oh, nice. And what made you decide to even do this at this point — several months into... now that you're... I mean, you're starting back up right now, right?

Ryan: Well, we did podcasts all through the pandemic; all through the social distancing time, where everybody was at home. We just did it on telephones, and however we could make it work, but we weren't doing it face-to-face.

Rodney: So, how are things going right now? I know you’ve got a couple projects finally back in gear here after being shut down for, what, three months? Four months?

Ryan: Oh, it's been... March. April, May, June, July. Really, five months shut down. And we're getting back up and running now.

Rodney: Yeah, I see some cars out there. So, there's some pre-production going on with a couple projects?

Ryan: Exactly; right. We have one project that's coming back that got interrupted by COVID. They're starting to ramp back up. And so they'll probably be the first ones to be filming again.

Rodney: Okay. In September — or are they going to be able to get going soon?

Ryan: I think they'll be filming before the end of August.

Rodney: Oh, wow. Okay.

Ryan: Because their sets are built, so they just need to get their whole production teams back up to speed.

Rodney: Yeah. I spoke with you during the pandemic, and you said you spent a goodly amount of money fixing things up. So, a quick summary on what you've done to this place to make it less COVID-friendly, so to speak, or more COVID-safe?

Ryan: Well, we've done a number of things. I was talking about this recently — and about the fact that, as the pandemic has progressed, we've learned more and more about how to fight against this virus. And some of the core fundamental things are just simply: wear masks to make sure that you don't have transfer of lung fluids of any sorts; keep social distance; and then, avoid being in small spaces where the airflow is poor.

Those are the primary, core, fundamental aspects of how we as a society can fight this thing. But then, what we did is, we went in and we put in air handling systems called bipolar ionization. And what it does is, it releases these ions into the air. These ions are charged such that they attack the virus in the air. So the air becomes antiviral. This technology has been used in hospitals for years, but we had no reason to think about being antiviral in the air pre-pandemic. So, we added those. That was our priority.

Rodney: I guess it wasn't a priority. I mean, obviously you could — because people have known sets to be quite... when somebody gets sick, everybody gets sick. That has always been kind of a traditional thing people say on sets, because everybody's so close together. But it wasn't a priority, because people weren't necessarily dying from a cold, or whatever.

Ryan: That's exactly right.

Rodney: It was an inconvenience more than anything else.

Ryan: It was an inconvenience. And this is the first time in this generation that a virus was so severe in the United States that it started to have a major effect on economic conditions and workplace conditions. So we put a lot of money into that system. But then, we've done other things. We put copper antiviral wraps on the door handles. We have installed touchless soap and water dispensers in all of our bathrooms.

Rodney: How about the sets? What do they look like now? Obviously, the production companies have their own protocols that are not necessarily your protocols.

Ryan: Well, they're the drivers of the protocols, quite frankly — because the Producers Guild, who is driving these protocols, has worked with the Screen Actors Guild and, and the Directors Guild and IATSE and the Teamsters, and had all of those unions sign off on protocols that they've developed as the guys that are really the logistics and business guys of the production: the producers. And so, we are largely yielding to their needs based on the protocols that they've developed, because they've been working with all of their constituents in a way that we haven't.

Rodney: Do you have to charge more for this in a sense, or do you have any leverage?

Ryan: Well, I mean, leverage is not something you want to apply in catastrophe.

Rodney: True. You don’t want to start selling masks for $30 apiece.

Ryan: That's right. In this environment, it's really a ‘how do we work together to get back to work?’ So I haven't experienced anybody seeking to price gouge, or put pressure. It feels like a very cooperative environment. Now, depending on how things change over time, things may get more expensive. It's like any sort of inflationary force. And when you have to spend more money on your product, then you have to charge more money to the end user. So I would imagine there will be some of that, because we are incurring costs that we weren't incurring before, but so are they. So we're all working together to try to figure out how to share the burden.

Rodney: From a studio standpoint, what's the primary expenses, outside the initial investment of all this equipment and installing all this equipment after the fact? What's the day-to-day? Is there a day-to-day cost for you as well?

Ryan: Well, the day-to-day costs are largely staff costs. That's one of my primary, major drivers.

Rodney: Trying to keep everything clean?

Ryan: Well, just the administration of our entire organization from the top down — from my vice presidents to my assistants, and my accountants, and my studio coordinators and stage managers. and all of the staff that is required to service a production company.

Rodney: And obviously, because of the safety protocols, that adds extra duties for each person. Right? Do you need extra people, or extra staffing on top of that?

Ryan: The extra staffing is largely being picked up by the productions, because they're adding the staff. Each of the productions is adding COVID staff.

Rodney: Safety coordinators and liaisons and overseers — whatever you want to call them?

Ryan: Yeah. So, in the past there were however many divisions inside of a production company — from transportation, which dealt with anything with wheels, to makeup; hair and makeup, and that division of people, and that labor. Now there's a new division that is basically COVID safety. Those bodies didn't exist before. It's a new job inside of Hollywood: COVID safety.

Rodney: Where do they find these people? Are people suddenly becoming experts, or do they have to find medical people?

Ryan: It's interesting. I was talking to a friend of mine this morning, in fact — Brynn Duvall, who runs a staffing company for productions. She said her primary focus in the in recent months has been trying to figure out ‘where are we going to source all of these COVID compliance people?’

Rodney: ‘Who are these people?’ Yeah, this doesn't exist before. So, you’ve got to find people. How do they get trained? How do they get licensed? What does that even mean?

Ryan: I don't even know. I mean, that'd be a question for Brynn. We can, and we should, ask her. I'd be totally speculating, but I'm guessing they're pulling people out of medical — like, they're pulling nurses out. Finding people that have a background.

Rodney: Yeah. I get the impression a lot of retirees have had to come back in, too, and help out — on the medical side, even though they may actually be very vulnerable to this virus.

Ryan: Well, I remember speaking to a doctor friend of mine who is an emergency room doctor. He, I believe, is early 60s. And he just said, “Listen: it's part of the job. If you're a police officer, you put yourself in harm's way. If you’re a soldier, you put yourself in harm's way; if you're a fireman. If you're an emergency room doctor, this is part of the territory.” So it's pretty brave when you hear somebody speak about it in these stark, easy terms.

Rodney: Yeah. What you and I are doing is nothing in comparison, I guess — from a safety perspective.

Ryan: Not from a risk safety perspective.

Rodney: Definitely not. Maybe from a financial risk perspective on your part right now. You're still in expansion mode, right? I mean, you've got this space, and you're still trying to add extra space here?

Ryan: We're tripling the size here in Atlanta.

Rodney: You already have nine studios?

Ryan: And we'll add at least 20 more. Maybe more.

Rodney: Wow. Was that a 3-to-5-year plan at this point?

Ryan: No; I mean, we should be finished with all of the entitlement work, I would think, in the next six months. And then it'll take us 12 months to build.

Rodney: Did COVID delay some of that?

Ryan: COVID definitely delayed it. COVID's delayed everything.

Rodney: Was it more of a financial situation, or more logistical, of the government just having...

Ryan: It’s a little bit of both. I mean, obviously, when you're spending... we've got $850 million of development in the pipeline between London, our expansion in Atlanta, and our expansion in LA.

Rodney: Is that money all committed? Are there people willing to shell that out at this point?

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. The process is probably 100 million of equity in year one, 100 million in year two, and probably 150 million in year three. And then the rest would be debt. So, it's about 500 million in debt.

Rodney: You have some rich friends.

Ryan: Well, I certainly have some very successful investors who understand what we're executing — and how rare it is, really, inside of the real estate space, to get something that is so early, and so misunderstood, where we can really expand and dominate the space.

Rodney: When you say ‘misunderstood,’ how is it misunderstood in the real estate space?

Ryan: Well, building movie studios in 2020 is not that different than building self-storage in the 1970s, right? In the 1970s, if you were building self-storage, there wasn't something called ‘self-storage.’

Rodney: No, it wasn't a thing at the time.

Ryan: It wasn't a thing. It wasn't even a category. Movie studios aren't a category at this point. Now, they might be now, because a month ago, Blackstone invested over $1 billion in the space with HPP in LA. HPE is a publicly traded REIT. They formed a joint venture to just buy studio spaces. So maybe it's a category now because of Blackstone. But pre-Blackstone, coming into the space, it wasn't a category.

Rodney: Got you. So, it was too niche?

Ryan: It was too niche. Yeah, exactly. So, imagine you're building self-storage in the 1970s, and you're a developer. You go to your banker friend, and you say, “Hey, I bought this piece of land down the street, and I want to build 100 garages on it. Would you give me a loan?”

Rodney: Yeah. Like, “What? What are you talking about?”

Ryan: “What are you talking about? You’re gonna build a hundred garages? Who's going to rent them?” “Well, my neighbor’s stuff is pouring out of his garage. And my buddy who's a plumber says he needs extra space as well.” He says, “You want to build 100 garages for plumbers and your neighbor?” You say, “Yeah, that's what I want to do.” “You're crazy. I can't make you a loan on that.”

So the guy builds it for cash — and he builds it for a 30 cap, which means he gets a 30% return without leverage on the things that he's building. Those are outrageous real estate returns, but he does it. And then he goes back to the banker with a rent roll, which is a list of all the people that are in his 100 garages. He gives it to the banker, and the banker says, “Oh my gosh, you filled up all those garages. But I can't make a loan on these cash flows. These are 30-day cancelable leases to plumbers and your neighbor. That's not good credit.” And the guy says, “I don't know what you're talking about. I’ve got to build more. I’ve got so much demand.”

And so the guy does it again, and he does it again. And by the 1980s, the bankers look at all these cash flows coming out of these garages and they say, “Man, it looks like people need a lot of extra space to store stuff.”

Rodney: Yeah, banks are laggards. They're not exactly the place to go for cutting-edge investments.

Ryan: They are not on the bleeding edge of opportunity. So then, they start making loans on this stuff. And by the 90s, you get publicly traded REITs that are multibillion dollar, publicly-traded REITs, that are all just self-storage. And those cash flows are trading on four-caps, which is a 4% return with that leverage. They're trading on four-caps today. And those cash flows are still just 30-day cancelable leases to plumbers and your neighbor.

Rodney: And this all ties in to the show Hoarders.

Ryan: Yeah. Fair enough. It does tie into the show Hoarders.

Rodney: Storage Wars as well. That was also a great show.

Ryan: Yeah, that was a good show. Storage Wars. So, in a similar way, the cash flows — the real estate cash flows of a movie studio — which is, all this is is commercial real estate.

Rodney: Yes. I mean, you come from the real estate side. You're not a Hollywood dude in that sense.

Ryan: Correct. So, the cash flows that come out of the movie studios that we develop are just real estate cash flows. And right now, they're not understood, because people don't totally understand this industry — the way they didn't understand self-storage in the 1970s. And so, over time, these cash flows will get validated. These cash flows will become felt to be permanent.

Rodney: Ten years ago, trying to do this would have been highly risky, because the tax credits were very new. You didn't know whether they were going to last. Without the tax credits, you would not have a very good business here.

Ryan: That's exactly right. But, still, building these today, you don't have good financing options.

Rodney: The options are still somewhat limited.

Ryan: It takes very sophisticated equity money. And it takes very sophisticated debt money to understand the trends enough to get ahead of the game and not wait around until it's normalized. Because when things get normalized, they get expensive. Whereas when things are not normal, then you get asymmetrical returns. So, right now, I feel like I'm taking very little real capital risk for hugely outsized returns. And that's great.

Rodney: Right; at this stage. But that may not be the case in 10 or 15 years.

Ryan: Correct. Like, I used to own a lot of a lot of apartments. I still own some. But at the peak, after Lehman Brothers failed in 2010, 11, 12, 13 — in those years, I bought about 8000 apartments, and those 8000 apartments traded at higher cap rates, and they were trading at higher cap rates on lower rents than they are today.

Today, the rents have run a long way. And so, the rent to income ratios are much higher than they used to be. It used to be that people were spending a lot less percentage of their income on their rent in Georgia. Now people are spending a lot more percentage of their income on rent. And the cap rates have fallen. Debt prices have fallen, too. But the margins of safety inside of multifamily are significantly less than they were when I was buying in 2010, 11 12, 13. It's largely driven by capital, right? So, in those years, post Lehman failing, capital was scarce.

Rodney: Gotcha.

Ryan: And so, there was opportunity to buy things where it didn't feel like there was much downside — but there was a huge amount of upside. Whereas today, it feels like, if you're buying multifamily, it might work out. If everything goes right, it might work out. But if anything goes wrong, it could go really, really wrong, because there's not a lot of margin of safety.

Rodney: This seems like a reasonable investment. What's the potential downside for you? I mean, you said it's not the highest-risk thing at this point, given the situation — you feel like you can get a good return based on demands for, I guess, product, which is movies and TV right now. There's still more demand than actual supply of studios at this point.

Ryan: Yeah. There's significantly more demand than there is supply. These are specialty buildings. So, there's a lot of ways you can screw them up. And when we were building them the first time, certainly, people I had involved screwed things up, and they had to be fixed. You have to be willing to take a risk of fixing screw-ups, because people can make mistakes. That keeps a lot of people out of new spaces — they don't want to make mistakes, and they don't want to have to recover from the mistakes of people that don't know what they're doing.

Rodney: So, you are looking to expand in London as well. And, was it New York or LA, or elsewhere?

Ryan: LA. We've got about $400 million in development in London, and we have about $250 million of expansion development in Los Angeles.

Rodney: Why didn't you choose New York or Vancouver or Toronto? I guess those are the other options.

Ryan: Well, it's not that we didn't choose. All of these places — other than Atlanta — the other cities, which are Los Angeles, New York, London, Toronto, Vancouver — those five other cities have very difficult, tight real estate markets. Atlanta is the place where there's the most land to expand. Atlanta — and really, Georgia as a whole — Georgia can absolutely own this space if we can just provide enough stability. Legislative stability, social stability — that we signal to the entertainment industry that we are totally committed to this space for the long term.

If that if the if the entertainment industry starts to believe that Georgia is truly a stable place for this industry, then we will just explode, because there's not places to grow in LA and London and Toronto and Vancouver, any of them; New York. The land is so scarce that they just don't have the opportunities to expand. So, we're working on some possible projects in New York. We're working on possible projects in Canada. We've just found projects in London, and found land in LA, and found land here in Georgia that all fits our expansion plans. And so that's where it all fits together.

Now, the hard part about all of this, even in Georgia, is that, as we continue to expand in this great location that is Blackhall — 15 minutes south of Inman Park — then this becomes kind of the de facto center of production life in the state. And then everything that radiates from that has a lot more risk, because we fundamentally have such a good, strong location and scale that other people can't match in that kind of a location.

Rodney: I mean, Screen Gems is kind of limited in their space.

Ryan: There's nowhere to grow.

Rodney: Can Metro Studios grow at all?

Ryan: I don't I don't think that's in their business plan.

Rodney: I guess Pinewood is...

Ryan: Pinewood could definitely grow.

Rodney: But they're a little out of the way, right?

Ryan: That's the difference. I mean, the only reason we built Blackhall in the first place was because Pinewood was so far outside the city. I said to myself, “Well, what if we built Pinewood in the city?” As I talked to people in Georgia and LA about that — I said, “What if I built Pinewood in the city?” — they said, “If you build Pinewood in the city, you're going to destroy it.”

Rodney: And the big studios are very happy to have you here. Right?

Ryan: They love it.

Rodney: Are you often the first call people make before they have to go to the second or third or fourth choice?

Ryan: They tell us that's the case. I mean...

Rodney: Maybe, maybe not.

Ryan: You never know exactly if what they're telling you is the truth. But all the feedback we get is that we're the first place that people want to be, and then they're going to other places if we don't have space.

Rodney: Right now, with nine studios, you can handle two huge projects right now?

Ryan: Two huge; three in general. Three productions. So, we're maybe doing five productions in a year.

Rodney: Yeah. That's not a huge number of productions, relatively speaking.

Ryan: No. In Georgia, at any one time in a non-COVID environment, there are 55, 60 productions going on. So, for us to triple our size just means that we go from three at a time...

Rodney: To eight? Maybe eight, seven, eight, ten at a time?

Ryan: With this, call it ten. So, if I'm 10 of 60...

Rodney: Yeah. You're never going to get a monopoly on this town in terms of studio space. There's still plenty of other studios. You're just one option.

Ryan: Correct. But we may get the ten best shows.

Rodney: Could be — or movies. Do you care whether it's a movie or a TV show or a docuseries? You know, not a docuseries, but a miniseries?

Ryan: Well, of course, no. I mean, it's all about the quality of the client. Universal and Disney and Marvel and Sony — these are amazing.

Rodney: Top of the line.

Ryan: Top of the line clients. So, whatever they want to make is fine. That being said, if you get a recurring television show, that's wonderful — because they might stay for ten years.

Rodney: Everybody's looking for The Walking Dead, right? That's what they hope for. Doesn't happen that often.

Ryan: Yeah. Game of Thrones. Walking Dead.

Rodney: But those are rare.

Ryan: Ray Donovan.

Rodney: It seems like the trend is for shorter series — to go shorter, with fewer episodes. That seems to be the case. I don't know if you're necessarily going to see a 201-episode run of The Office again any time soon, especially if it's on a streaming service.

Ryan: Why do you think that is?

Rodney: I don't know. Netflix doesn't seem committed to doing a huge deal. They want quantity, and maybe quality — in the sense, quantity, of a lot of different shows, but also quality in terms of just doing a few episodes. It seems like they're not forcing anyone to do 23 episodes a year. I think, in the broadcast world, they have to feed the beast, and they only have limited... they're not going to run so many. They can only run so many shows. And they would like those shows to run 23 episodes a year. Back in the day, syndication mattered. So, that was a big deal back in the day.

What's interesting is that the most popular streaming shows sometimes are the shows that have 200 episodes: Friends, Seinfeld, Big Bang Theory, The Office. They all have a huge number of episodes — yet I don't think anything Netflix has released has gone more than 80 or 90. I think Orange Is the New Black is probably their longest, most episodes of anything they've released. It's probably at maybe 80 or 90 episodes — and it used to be 100; that used to be the magic marker for syndication. So I don't think anything Netflix has released would even qualify in the old world of syndication — which is weird, but they don't care. They're happy with 8 or 10 episodes a season for 3 to 5 seasons. That seems to be the norm for them.

Ryan: But they haven't really, at this point, developed anything that would be considered, like, a sitcom.

Rodney: Like, a truly successful sitcom? I mean, they had Fuller House, which was kind of a... but nobody ever considered that something that's going to stand the test of time. I don't think any of their biggest hits would be considered traditional Big Bang Theory type sitcoms. Or even The Office, or anything like that.

Ryan: I wonder what's keeping them from trying to utilize that?

Rodney: I don't know. I mean, they've done a lot of dramedy, kind of. Glow and Orange Is the New Black have definitely comedic elements, and they have some traditional sitcom-y stuff. But none of it's broken big, you know? Like, massive.

Ryan: Why do you think they haven't been able to develop something like Friends or Seinfeld?

Rodney: It's hard to do. I mean, the broadcast networks haven't been able to do it. I think humor... maybe people's you know... I think our world has gotten so bifurcated, and so broken up, it's hard to find anything that everybody wants to watch anymore anyway. And Netflix doesn't even care. Everything's very niche for them anyway. They're not looking for something that's going to bring in 30 million viewers. That's not even their intention. And most streaming services are like that now. It's about having enough product that somebody will spend $13 a month on it.

Ryan: Because of COVID and the lack of content, I've been watching a bunch of old 90s movies with my ten-year-old.

Rodney: Oh, which ones?

Ryan: We watched Coming to America. I didn't really remember that one.

Rodney: That’s 80s. Come on.

Ryan: It's true. 88. It was 88.

Rodney: Great movie. I love that movie.

Ryan: We watched the original Jumanji.

Rodney: And it's funny — both movies, I guess, whose sequels have been shot here in Georgia.

Ryan: Here at Blackhall, in fact. Yeah.

Rodney: Jumanji did. Did Coming to America also shoot some stuff here too?

Ryan: No, that was all done, I think, at Areu Bros.

Rodney: Areu Bros. Okay. And then that movie’s supposed to come out later this year, or something? I don't know how the schedules are now. It's very, very fuzzy.

Ryan: You know, what I'm actually excited for is Lovecraft Country.

Rodney: Yeah. It's coming out on Sunday.

Ryan: And that was all filmed here at Blackhall.

Rodney: It's luscious looking. I watched the first episode. You could tell. And you could see a lot of the small towns they used around Atlanta, to be used as small towns across the country.

Ryan: I love that. How did you see the first episode? Is it already dropped?

Rodney: No. HBO gives me access to screeners.

Ryan: Oh, nice.

Rodney: I have multiple episodes. I just haven't a chance. I've had to watch other things.

Ryan: You have multiple episodes. Are they going to drop multiple episodes on Sunday?

Rodney: No, no. HBO, I think, is still this traditional model of once a week. This is not an HBO Max series where they might... and even then, some of the streaming services still do a traditional. Like, Hulu still will release one; maybe they'll release 2 or 3 in the beginning, and then one a week.

I think Netflix is the only one that consistently, I think, just releases the entire season at once. They rarely split things up. I think with Love Is Blind, which was an Atlanta reality show, they did split up some of the episodes. They didn't air them all at once, because they wanted to build up some anticipation and some discussion, and it worked very well for Love Is Blind. And that was a big deal earlier this year.

Ryan: Well, one of the things that I've been noticing in watching these movies with my daughter is that a lot of the humor might be very difficult to get away with in this current environment.

Rodney: Oh, no doubt. Yeah.

Ryan: Right. I mean, the humor... what do we do with that? What do the journalists talk about when you start talking about it?

Rodney: It's a challenge. It's part of that whole discussion of cancel culture. Jimmy Fallon, 20 years ago, did a blackface thing about Chris Rock, and now he's getting crap for it. But that was acceptable. You can always argue — was that really all that funny anyway? But yeah, white people dressed up in blackface a lot back then; quite often, usually in a jokey way. Right through the 2000s. It's kind of astonishing how much that happened. But humor is changing, and it's tough. I feel bad for our standup comics and comedy writers. It's a challenge, I'm sure, to know where the line is drawn.

Ryan: Do you think they could make that... remember that movie with the Wayans Brothers, White Chicks?

Rodney: Oh, no way. I know, that was like a reverse blackface thing. That was kind of a mockery of blackface, I think — the whole concept of it.

Ryan: I thought that movie was hilarious. But that couldn't be made today. Do you think? Could that get greenlit?

Rodney: Good question. I don't know; I'm not the person. You could ask your buddies in the production companies what they think.

Ryan: In cancel culture, are black people allowed to dress up like white people?

Rodney: Good question. I mean, that was a classic Eddie Murphy skit, too. Back in the SNL days, in the 80s, there was a funny skit where he dressed up as a white person. Then he found out that white people had all these benefits he had no idea about.

Ryan: Well, in in Coming to America, he plays Saul, the Jewish guy who hangs out at the barbershop.

Rodney: That's true. He does. He plays everybody in the barbershop.

Ryan: Well, Arsenio Hall plays one of the characters.

Rodney: Oh, that's true. But he plays four characters, right? That must have been a shooting nightmare. Talk about having... that must have taken days to piece that one scene together.

Ryan: He was fantastic, though. I mean, early Eddie Murphy.

Rodney: Oh, he was classic. And Coming to America was just absolutely brilliant. Funny movie.

Ryan: Absolutely hilarious.

Rodney: But you're right. Lovecraft Country is an interesting hybrid of horror, and a little bit like Green Book or something — because there's even a guy who apparently does a Green Book type book in the TV show, and it's set in the 50s.

Ryan: Because it’s the Jim Crow era, right?

Rodney: Yeah, definitely — but there's also this horror element to it too. So it's kind of an interesting hybrid.

Ryan: But is it horror like Get Out, or is it grotesque?

Rodney: I haven't gotten to that point yet, but it's not. It's probably more subtle horror.

Ryan: Like suspense.

Rodney: Yeah. Suspense horror, with just a little bit of blood and scary stuff.

Ryan: Although, I remember when they were here walking in to one of their sets, and it was torture equipment. It was a torture chamber.

Rodney: Wow. I've only watched the first episode. I think a lot of weird things will be happening down the road.

Ryan: Well, there's this time travel element that plays out.

Rodney: At some point?

Ryan: I know for sure, because I would see characters from all these different eras that were not the 1950s around the studio. And I'd say, “Why are those guys dressed up like that? Oh, that's for Lovecraft Country.”

Rodney: Yeah, it's like Watchmen. They did some cool flashbacks. HBO did some cool flashback scenes.

Ryan: I haven't seen Watchmen. Is that worth watching?

Rodney: It's fascinating. Especially in this day of masks — because masks become such a big deal in the in the show. It's kind of prescient that way — even though it has nothing to do with viruses. But it's a fascinating show, for sure. It's worth seeing, no doubt.

Ryan: I'll put that on my list.

Rodney: I'm not sure which studio. I don't remember. The problem is, I'm terrible at remembering which studios. I don't know which studio did Watchmen. Do you remember which local studio was the base?

Ryan: Oh, Watchmen was at Atlanta Metro.

Rodney: Atlanta Metro. Okay.

Ryan: Yeah. I think Watchmen came in before Blackhall opened in 2017.

Rodney: Oh, gotcha. And Red Notice, the Netflix show with The Rock?

Ryan: Red Notice, I believe, was at Atlanta Metro as well.

Rodney: Yeah, he was almost done when they had to shut things down. So I guess they have to go back and do whatever they didn't finish.

Ryan: Well, he has such a tight schedule.

Rodney: Oh, because he always has 17 projects online?

Ryan: I mean, they're trying to figure out when to make Hobbs and Shaw, too.

Rodney: Oh, gotcha. Right.

Ryan: So, the Rock can make 3 or 4 movies a year.

Rodney: He could, yeah — under normal circumstances.

Ryan: Not in COVID. But in a normal world, he's making 3 to 4 movies in a year.

Rodney: That’s insane. I don't know how that guy does it.

Ryan: He's a machine.

Rodney: How does he have time to work out and stay in shape? I don't even know how he does all that.

Ryan: That is childhood trauma. The only way you have that kind of motivation. That kind of workaholism is maybe resolved childhood trauma — but born from childhood trauma nonetheless.

Rodney: All right. You're going to have to talk to the Rock about that one. I don't know anything.

Ryan: I bet he would tell us. He seems like an incredibly open guy.

Rodney: Some of the people I've talked to — Frank over at Pinewood — and he's got a new name coming, too. He's supposed to come up with a new name for Pinewood. They were supposed to announce it in June, but they delayed it until next month, so we'll find out whatever name Frank comes up with. I'm not sure; you haven't heard what the new name is, right?

Ryan: I heard it was going to be ‘Eat More Chicken Studios.’

Rodney: Very subtle. That would be so subtle, right? I mean, look; you’re a real estate guy. You’re a business guy. Do you want to be liked? Does it matter whether everybody loves you? Does it not make a difference?

Ryan: Listen; business life is not that different than sports life, which is, if people are talking about you as a competitor, it means that they don't like playing you.

Rodney: That could be part of what I'm getting at, too.

Ryan: Right? So, in sports, I've always thought that the place that you want to be — you want to be in a place like Michael Jordan or Tom Brady, where your competitors hate playing against you — and where your teammates absolutely love having you on their team. If you're doing that, then people will talk bad about you.

So, certainly, from a business standpoint, I would never anticipate that everybody would speak kindly about me, because I'm not doing things that are in everybody's interest. I'm doing things in the interest of my investors, and my own money, and my own family, and my own friends. We all have our own tribes. And so I'm doing everything I can to help my own tribe win. That, sometimes, is at the expense of other tribes.

Rodney: There are currently two different groups representing... I guess, kind of lobbying groups for studios here. Why are there two? I was always trying to figure out: why isn't there just one in this town right now? Is that complicated?

Ryan: I think that's a politically complicated thing — about early movers and late movers, and smaller studios and bigger studios.

Rodney: Are the priorities of a smaller studio different than a larger studio in any way.

Ryan: Not necessarily. I think that just comes down to ego and politics, and all of the things that humans face when they are trying to band together.

Rodney: True. So, it’s often less about the substance of what's going on. Sometimes it's about the individuals involved.

Ryan: Yeah. Why do we have political conflict? It shouldn't be that complicated to just make a nation wonderful.

Rodney: If it was just about policy in and of itself, from a purely straight, objective standpoint. Take all the emotion out of it. If we were all Spock, sure — it'd be great.

Ryan: If we were all Spock, then that would work.

Rodney: If it's just pure logic — but we don't live in a logical world. And I guess social media makes it so that everybody's inflamed and annoyed.

Ryan: Fair. So, inside of inside of the micro-world that is studios in Georgia...

Rodney: Right. Which is a micro-world.

Ryan: People have their own egos and their own ideas and, in many ways, it's no different than Protestant churches in America. If they don't like each other? They just make a new church. Right?

Rodney: Right. That's true. There are there are many variants, just in the Protestant world. And look — even Frank has his own sort of conception of how he created Pinewood that's different from how you create your studio. Right? I mean, he wants to bring in... I guess he's brought in, what, like 50 vendors on site, or whatever? And he has this conception of how to create a world.

Ryan: Listen: if the guys at Screen Gems were early movers in the space...

Rodney: They were the first ones to open here, effectively. I was at a press conference for the very first opening when they opened.

Ryan: That was exciting, and that was important. And it really got things rolling. Maybe Dan Cathy never builds Pinewood if they don't open Screen Gems. I'm not sure. But until Dan opened Pinewood...

Rodney: That was a big deal.

Ryan: That was a huge game changer.

Rodney: Just having the name ‘Pinewood’ attached to it, in the Hollywood world — that gave it a sense of importance. Right? It was part of the folks in England. It was connected to them. And that gave them credibility, I guess.

Ryan: Well, if Georgia was credible enough to attract Pinewood, that was a big deal. And then, when Dan built such a fantastic facility — a world-class movie-making production facility — and it attracted Marvel, Marvel loved the place.

Rodney: Marvel is a big deal. Having Marvel come here...

Ryan: Game changer. So, that's when the world just transformed, and we went from being a backwater of production...

Rodney: Right. I mean, the early shows were not the greatest shows — and no offense to Lifetime's Drop-Dead Diva and some of these early shows. They were okay. But we weren't getting... The Walking Dead was kind of an exception — an early exception, in terms of becoming a huge, massive hit. But we got Necessary Roughness from USA Network. No offense, but not the greatest show ever.

Ryan: Well, it's not Marvel.

Rodney: Not even close. We were getting some low-rent, sequel-type stuff in the early going.

Ryan: Yeah. The stuff that New Mexico gets; the stuff that Louisiana gets; all of these. That's the kind of stuff that Atlanta was getting pre-Pinewood.

Rodney: We were not getting the $100-million-budget movies in the early going. Not at all.

Ryan: So, when Dan builds Pinewood and attracts the A players, and then all of the vendors come to service the A players — now we have an ecosystem that allows someone like me to build Blackhall. Right? Blackhall only exists because Pinewood exists. So, in a similar way, Pinewood led the way on the physical space. And right now, Frank and Dan are leading the way on the production space. They raised a fund to start making content in Georgia. And so, they're going to break that ice.

Rodney: Yeah, because that is still probably the weakest point. Tyler Perry not included, most of the ideas, most of the concepts, are still being made out of LA. Most of the scripts.

Ryan: Absolutely. We don't have that ecosystem.

Rodney: The executive producers — most of them still live in LA. And even when they shoot here — and I've interviewed many people out of LA for shows shot here — you can always, always get a sense. They say nice things about Georgia, but deep down, they want to stay in LA. You know that. They'd rather just come home and sleep in their own bed.

Ryan: Yeah. That's because that's their home, and that's their ecosystem.

Rodney: Right. But Tyler — this is his home. What impact do you think Tyler has had so far — his presence, and his studios — on the overall scene in Georgia?

Ryan: Well, I think he's had tremendous impact on the awareness of Georgia as a production hub. The place where I would like to see him have even more impact is on the capital side. So, largely, the things that Tyler has funded have been his own productions. That's where he makes all his money; he's made lots of money.

Rodney: He finally opened it up to other people not too long ago. Now he's got a big enough studio. He has allowed people to shoot stuff there.

Ryan: Sure, but I'm talking about the capital side. Like, I would love to see Tyler start funding other filmmakers, right? Start funding other producers. That's really what we’re missing.

Rodney: That’s interesting. Has anybody ever brought that up to him? Has he shown any interest? Have you seen anything? That's a good question to ask him.

Ryan: Tyler and I are not close. We've met a few times. He lives in a different world. I mean, I just run a physical studio. And in his world, I'm a nobody, because he's a superstar — a world-famous actor.

Rodney: He talks to Oprah.

Ryan: Right. His peer group is...

Rodney: Samuel L Jackson and Cicely Tyson.

Ryan: So, I'm not getting a lot of his airtime.

Rodney: That's fair. But that's not a bad idea for him if he wants to sort of... and some of his former... like, Areu. He had worked with him. And Roger Bob started a production company. He had worked with him. So, a lot of the people he's worked with have been seeded into other worlds. But, like you said, he hasn't done it on a grander scale. He hasn't said, “Here’s $50 million for me to help these other people develop whatever.”

Ryan: I would love to see him say to Ozzie Areu, “Yes, here's $50 million. Make Latin content.” Right? “Make the Latin studio that is like Tyler Perry — the way Tyler Perry is to the African-American content community, let's make Areu Bros. into the Latin version of that.”

Rodney: Do you know if he's funded Ozzie in any way? I mean, he may have. But we don’t know.

Ryan: I believe that he's been involved in some of Ozzie's funding, but I'm not sure if that was facility-related or content, because I don't believe Areu Bros. has been making content yet.

Rodney: Not themselves. No; people are on the set doing stuff.

Ryan: So, they have a facility the way we have a facility.

Rodney: And they've talked about it. I've heard them talk about it quite a bit. I don't know how far along they are.

Ryan: I would love to see that happen. That's what we need. We need more people that are taking Georgia money and putting it into film and television, and having that money make a lot of money.

Rodney: I mean, you're more of a real estate guy. Are you less inclined to do that yourself? Because that's not really your strength, or...

Ryan: Really, my strength in real estate is investments and finance. So there's all these different elements of real estate. And my strength is seeing things early, or imagining things in new ways. But then, I might bring guys on who are construction experts. Or I might bring guys on who are legal experts. I'm going to bring people on in all these different capacities. In a similar way, we will eventually grow into a production studio. And my role in that will be to make investment decisions — like, raise money, and make greenlight decisions about concepts and ideas and intellectual property. But I won't be involved at the filming level. We’re going to hire all the best producers.

Rodney: Right. They're not going to be spitballing ideas for the next sequel of, I don't know, Star Wars or something.

Ryan: Well, I might be involved in the ideas phase, right? The intellectual property phase — that's where I can add a lot of value. I make money as a businessman, but really, that's not my essence. My essence is a lot more poetic than that. I often feel like a more poet, priest, philosopher kind of a soul that's masquerading in the business world. And yet, those elements of my personality might actually be my superpower in the business world.

Rodney: It could be, yeah. Because you seem to have a good grasp of not just the details, but some of the big picture issues as well.

Ryan: I'm better at the big picture than I am at the details.

Rodney: But you hire people to deal with it.

Ryan: I hire people to deal with the gory details.

Rodney: And if you can keep your hands... I mean, are you kind of an overly hands-on person, or do you feel like you're actually pretty good at keeping things?

Ryan: I am not a micromanager — and that is a strength and a weakness.

Rodney: It can be; it can go either way. It depends. Yeah.

Ryan: If you get highly talented people who are self-motivated, there's nothing they've ever dreamed of more than having a boss who is hands-off. Whereas, if you get people that are in any way incompetent or nefarious, then they can abuse that kind of hands-off...

Rodney: So you have to have a good sense of who to hire.

Ryan: Yeah. That's what my biggest mistakes in my business life have all been about — bad judgment about somebody’s character.

Rodney: Well, hopefully you've got a good staff now, right?

Ryan: Fantastic. Yeah.

Rodney: When was the last time you had to fire somebody? Before we go — last question. This is a hilarious last question.

Ryan: I fired somebody in the spring.

Rodney: Oh, you did? During the pandemic?

Ryan: During the pandemic.

Rodney: Sorry you had to do it. Was it incompetence, or was it something they had done that was more nefarious?

Ryan: It was nefarious.

Rodney: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Ryan: Yeah. But, you know, it is what it is.

Rodney: Did you catch it before it metastasized into something really bad?

Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah.

Rodney: That's good. Yeah. You’ve got to catch these things early. So, you still have to have people to watch the other people.

Ryan: Well, I didn't catch it, really. It was other people who work for me who were watching it. So there is accountability inside of that ecosystem.

Rodney: That's important. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. We could talk a lot longer, but we are out of time. And I've enjoyed reversing the tables here.

Ryan: Thanks for doing it.

Rodney: I'm Rodney Ho from the AJC — and thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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Ryan: Putting an exclamation point on the end of each podcast, I share inspirational sayings that I write on Instagram. “Let us sit in the silence of the awareness that we have no language to describe the presence that holds all things together.”

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.