Ryan Millsap Meets Actor Eric Goins - DC Comics' Supervillain with a Soul

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap. I got into the moviemaking business by being a real estate entrepreneur, but also because I'm a big movie fan. I get a huge kick out of watching blockbuster movies that I watch being made at Blackhall. COVID-19 has put a temporary crimp in production — hasn't it for everybody? But some amazing movies will be shooting at our studio soon, and I'll have some amazing folks on the podcast.

I'm also into ethics and philosophy, and I think you'll see those themes throughout the podcast. So, you're wondering: where exactly does the movie business and philosophy come together? That's the journey I want to take you on on the Blackhall Studios Podcast. I’ll bring you guests from both worlds, and I think you'll be surprised at how much philosophy goes into the world of making movies. Plus, you'll get an inside look at the new Hollywood of the South right here in Atlanta, Georgia. Give a listen. I think you'll enjoy what you hear. I'm happy to have you along for the ride on the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

Today on the podcast, I've got actor Eric Goins. Eric is from my home base of Atlanta, Georgia, and right now you can see him as Steven Sharpe, a supervillain known as The Gambler, in the CW’s new summer hit Stargirl. Shot here in Georgia, Stargirl has a great cast and an interesting, complex storyline. And after you hear this conversation with Eric, you're going to want to binge the first season. I know I'm going to – probably with my daughters. Check out Eric Goins on IMDb and on Instagram. Thanks for subscribing to the podcast. I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap. Welcome to the Blackhall Podcast. I've got a great guest today, Mr. Eric Goins. You can see Eric right now on the CW’s DC Comics series Stargirl. Eric, welcome to the Blackhall Podcast.

Eric: Hey, thanks for having me. I want to say thank you so much for talking to me today. I know you can speak to a lot of people. And I appreciate you talking to a local actor here in Georgia. You know, I'm not the Robert Downey Jr. of the acting world, but I think I represent the working people of Georgia who are here to make a living. And I want to thank you for talking to me today.

I also want to thank you for what you're doing here in Georgia, because – as an actor who is really interested in having an inviting, successful, productive environment for film and television to shoot – I really appreciate what you're doing with Blackhall: really planting roots here, and helping us grow as a community, and putting a tent pole in the ground. Even as you grow internationally, I appreciate that Georgia will maintain its position as your headquarters. So, thanks for having me, and thanks for all you're doing.

Ryan: It's absolutely my pleasure. It's so exciting to see Georgia in this growth phase. When you think back ten years ago, I don't know if you were... were you an actor in Georgia ten years ago? Tell everybody what acting in Georgia was like ten years ago versus today.

Eric: Well, ten years ago, most of my roles were defined as commercials and industrials. So there wasn't a lot of television and film in our market. That was the majority of my work. Then, I also had to have a lot of other outside jobs. I had to perform at a theater regularly, which I loved. And as for what's happened over the last ten years, it’s more and more opportunity – not only in the commercial and industrial world, but in television and film.

These large-scale productions, and even the small-scale productions, are just providing so many great opportunities for local actors to really launch a career in this industry that, until ten years ago, seemed like a dream. Those opportunities are here, and they're available. And if you're ready, and you're prepared, then there's no reason why you can't step into these opportunities and make a career – which is what all actors are trying to do, right?

There's 160,000 members within SAG-AFTRA, which is the Screen Actors Guild that represents actors, and only the top 1% are the really ultra-high earners – the $20-million-a-picture kind of people. Everybody else – the other 98 to 99% – are a group of people who are just trying to make a middle-class, upper-middle-class lifestyle for their families and pay their bills and provide a good lifestyle for their families. And being in Georgia, it is absolutely a realistic and attainable goal to provide a good, solid, lifestyle for your family – given the amount of work that's here in Georgia.

Ryan: That's so good to hear. When you talk to people who are imagining themselves as young actors; imagining a career in acting – what are some of the things you wish somebody would have told you when you were starting out?

Eric: I wish somebody had told me that, “Everything you have, Eric, today, is enough to do it.” I felt like I spent – and I think a lot of actors do that – I feel like I spent a lot of time trying to please directors and casting directors and trying to figure out what they wanted.

Ryan: Well, that's a problem, I think, for a lot of people in many careers – entrepreneurship, for sure. I mean, when I have young kids come to me and ask me about being an entrepreneur, I have a similar commentary, which is: “Are you in a position where you now believe you can do it?”

Eric: Everything I bring to the table as a human being, as Eric Goins – the person, the individual, the father, the husband, the friend – it's enough. And not only is it enough; it's, a lot of times, what they're looking for. So I wish somebody had told me that all the tools I had were already inside me.

There's a great saying that “it's not what the actor becomes to play the character. It's what the character becomes because the actor played it.” And that has never rung more true for me than today. I wish somebody had told me that a long time ago, because it's such a worthwhile career. It's such a great road of self-reflection and self-growth. And if you're a storyteller – I firmly believe that the world needs all types of people. They need teachers and lawyers and doctors and plumbers and electricians. But the world needs storytellers.

Sometimes that storytelling journey can be really difficult. It's riddled with a lot of ‘nos.’ No other career – well, it's hard to think of another career where ‘no’ is your answer 95% of the time. And that's what it is, being an actor. But knowing that I have enough inside of me – really, the barometer for my success is not ‘did I book the job? Did I make the people on the other side of the table happy?’ It's ‘did I present my best self today? Did I conquer my anxiety and my fears and my insecurities? And did I present a very vulnerable human being doing the best he can, giving pieces of himself that only those people on the other side of the table might get to see? Did I present that in a way that was the best me I could do?’

If I did that – well, then I succeeded that day. And I can walk out of that audition and know that I did the very best I could. After that, the decision’s out of my hands. I have no say in it, and I can't hang my hat on the choices and decisions that other people make. I wish somebody had told me that it's that easy, ten, fifteen years ago – because it's really liberating, when you walk this very difficult career with that type of philosophy. It can be a very people-pleasing type of career choice.

Ryan: There's a lot of careers like this: that you have to show up in the present moment, and you can't control the outcomes.

Eric: Absolutely. I mean, sales. Sales is a great example. I've done improv for 20 years now, and some of the best lessons I've learned as a human being come from improv. I teach workshops sometimes – or I have in the past – and I've taught salespeople. The lessons that you learn in improv that are applicable to salespeople and teamwork and team building are just... listening, being present, making good eye contact, reading unspoken gestures. ‘Yes, and’-ing. Taking someone's information, and building on it in a collaborative way that brings success to both parties so it's a win-win, as opposed to a ‘yes, but,’ which generally means you discount everything you say before the ‘but.’ Right? “Yeah. You got a great idea, but...”

So, those tools, I think, are what really allows an actor, or an improviser, or a salesperson, or anyone in any type of career to stay present. I'm so glad I learned those tools in improv, and I wish everybody could take improv once.

Ryan: Have you done the kind of psychological inner exploration of yourself that lets you know why it is you enjoy this career?

Eric: Yeah; I sure have. I started taking improv about 20 years ago. I started taking classes, and when I started taking classes, the best way for me to describe it is that the chemistry in my brain changed. I used to work in corporate America, and so I had a long history of working in corporate America. I started acting a little later in life. And the only way I can describe it is that I went from being a very product-driven / operationally-focused person – I worked for Coca-Cola for a short time, and I helped schedule fountain installation, so it was really like ‘detail, detail detail.’

When I started being a storyteller, the chemistry in my brain changed, and I started to think in a different way. ‘Think outside the box’ is the cliche that we hear quite a bit. But then, I also started to realize that, if I was going to have any success as a performer or an actor on television and film... In order to share the things that people were expecting me to share – sadness, happiness, frustration, love, compassion; all those words that are important in our society – in order to share those, I had to go inside myself and find them. And I learned that lesson really, really early.

And so, acting for me – the thing that keeps me going is that it is a journey for myself, for me, to really create my best self. To realize this very comprehensive human being that is Eric Goins, with all the emotions and the feelings that a fully-formed human being can have. I'm not there yet, and I don't think I'll ever be there. Right? I think, for me, the human experience is a continuous growth.

Being a storyteller, and being an actor, has provided me this really cool path to journey towards that – because I can only share something if I own it. I can only own it if I know I have it. So, if I have to cry on camera, or show compassion, or be kind or happy – crying on camera or being vulnerable; those aren't necessarily skills that, as a young man, I was taught, right? It wasn't encouraged for me to cry and be vulnerable. But on screen, I have to. On a stage, you absolutely have to – because the audience can tell if you're not being vulnerable, and they don't believe anything that you're giving them.

So, in order to find those, I have to go inside. I have to find out what drives those emotions within me. And as a result, now I have it. Now I have it as a human being, and I've identified that it's there. I use it on camera, but I keep it in my body, and I have that for the rest of my life. That's what drives me as an actor. That's the journey that I'm on as an actor. And I know it’s super deep and introspective. But I think it's the only thing that can keep you going in a career that's very challenging.

Ryan: Well, it sounds like spiritual exercise to me.

Eric: Absolutely. I think it has to encompass some part of your career – having that type of spiritual exercise where you look deep within yourself and find out not only who the person is, who you need to be for any given situation, but who the person is that you want to be eventually, and go find those traits, and start expressing them. You can't be something on camera or on stage unless you are that in real life.

So, what I always tell actors is, “If you want to be compassionate on camera –" which I think is arguably one of the most powerful words that an actor can think about as a performer or an actor – “If you want to be compassionate on camera, then you’d better go be compassionate in life, because the camera doesn't lie.” If you're a compassionate person, then you will be compassionate on camera. But if you're not compassionate in real life, there's no chance that it's going to read that way on stage or on camera.

So you’ve got to go be that. You’ve got to pull over and help the lady that needs help with her car. You’ve got to... you know, the proverbial; “got to help the old lady cross the street,” and things like that. That way, you're building those skills outside of the craft; outside of the career. So when you come to the table, they're already there. You're just showing them who you are. You're not trying to be something you're not. You're just showing them. And hopefully what I bring to the table this day is what you're looking for. But if it's not – then you'll find a brand that works today. And hopefully, my brand of human being and acting works for you a different day, or in a different role that you haven't even thought about yet.

Ryan: There's a certain conception of the soul that believes that the soul is either expanding into a greater humanity, or contracting into something away from a whole humanity. Do you relate to that?

Eric: I think so. I mean, I think if we're not moving in one direction, then we're kind of just standing still. And I don't know that that's possible. Right? You're always moving towards or away from something. Even as human beings, when we talk, we tend to move in to talk to people when we're interested, and we move away when we're kind of dismayed by what's in front of us.

So, I think, not only does that paradigm exist; I think that we have a choice as to which way we move towards it. Right? I think we can make a choice each day by practice. Putting thoughts in our head that are moving us towards the good, and not towards the bad. And I think we have control over which direction we move. I absolutely identify with that. I don't know that my entire life, I've been moving in the right direction. I mean, I think all human beings have parts of their life where they find themselves in the dark, or lost. I've been there. And I think making a choice to move towards the light, so to speak, is something we can all choose. And that's what I'm choosing to do at this point in my life.

Ryan: In the movie Chariots of Fire, Eric Little very famously says, “I feel God's pleasure when I run.” Do you feel anything like that? Do you feel like the universe takes pleasure in the craft that you've chosen?

Eric: I think so. I mean, as a Christian, I believe that God has put me on this planet to be a storyteller, and to use my talents and skills in the greatest form that I can. I feel most alive, and most in touch with God, when I'm on stage in front of a live audience. I always tell people, “If you want to know who I am – the full totality of who Eric is – then come see me in an improv performance,” where I have no prepared lines, no scripts, no rehearsal. It's just me – being present, and sharing the most essential part of who I am. And in those moments, I have the same experience. He feels God when he's running. I feel God when I'm performing. I know that I am in the place I was built to be.

I had an experience. I was in a movie called The Boss with Melissa McCarthy. While my scene got cut, it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I spent a full day with Melissa, just improvising – that's it. Because I had one line in the movie, but through the improvisation that we found together, my scene got fully expanded. Then it got cut drastically.

I remember distinctly in that moment, where I was improvising with this icon of improv, saying to myself, “For the first time in my career, I realize this is what I'm built to do. This is where I'm supposed to be.” When you have those types of elucidations, enlightenments in your path, you're like, “Oh wow. All the hard work, and all the possible disappointment, is totally worth it – because I know this is what I was made to do.”

Ryan: Were you this self-aware growing up, or is this something that came later? Talk me through some of your awakening.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I was not this self-aware as a young person. I can tell you that. And I don't think I'm alone in that. I grew up focused on achievement. Right? I was very achievement-driven. I was conditioned to be achievement-driven. And a lot of times, when you're driven in that way, I think you lose the sense of self. I think you're not self-aware because you're being driven towards a product – which is, generally speaking, achievement.

I would say, a lot of my awakenings... like I mentioned earlier, when I started doing improv, first of all, the chemistry in my brain changed. I understood that, if I wanted to do something that I legitimately enjoyed, then I needed to become aware of the tools I needed to do that. So I think, in a way, maybe my achievement-driven upbringing was pointed in the right direction – in a healthy direction. Because then I wanted to achieve introspection in order to become a better performer.

So I had to do that. And I went deep. I started thinking about who I was as a person, and who I needed to be, and how I treated others. And all those things came to my person so I could be a better performer. That didn't happen until later in life. Until then, I kind of felt like I walked around looking outward at everything. And then, when I started doing improv... I think it could be true of anyone's career. For me, it happened in a performance-driven career, because I think it's what I was built to do.

That moment really created a sense of introspection for me. When I walked on stage, and I had to be a character, or share something in front of an audience, the only way to authentically do it was to make sure I had it within me. Because an audience will always, always see whether you're being authentic or not. I think that's where the trust comes in. Right? When you're doing a live performance, and you're sharing something that may not be authentically you – or trying to do it in a way that somebody else has done it...

The classic trap for an actor is, “Oh, I'm playing a cop. So, okay, for this audition, I know what a cop looks like on television, and I've watched Law and Order a ton, and, I'll just do it the way I've seen it, because obviously that's what succeeds in this industry.” It comes off as bad acting. And on a live performance stage, it comes off as inauthentic. Now the audience doesn't trust you. But if I just do it my way, and I say, “Yeah, I'm going to play a cop. But I'm going to play Eric being a cop. It may not be what you thought it was going to be, but it will be me. And whether I fit into this project or not, one day you'll find a cop that needs to be Eric the cop.”

So, that was a real important point for me. But also, as a Christian, those are moments where I have to look inside myself, too. I have to dig deep, and I have to make my life fall in line with what I find important – the parts of my humanity that I find important. My faith drives me in those directions as well. Getting re-involved with a church that I go to regularly, and knowing those people – obviously, that plays a role in any type of spiritual journey or introspection that I have to find – because the first thing you have to do is identify that you need the introspection. Maybe not as a performer, or a career professional, but as a human being – because, at the end of the day, I think we all want peace in our lives, and we want happiness.

For me, what I have found is, working on who I am as a person not only helps me in my career, but it brings those things to me outside of my career; in my family life; in my relationships. And I'm not in any way claiming that I've figured it all out. I just know that the small successes I have on a daily basis are moving me in the right direction.

Ryan: So, there's a psychological system called the Enneagram. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

Eric: Oh, I'm an eight.

Ryan: I was going to ask you – what hat are some of your haunting life questions? You have a lot of ‘power’ questions at the core.

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: Tell me a little bit about what it's like to journey with this power struggle. Because an eight – their core life question has to do with who's in charge. “How much power do I have, and how much power do other people have over me?”

Eric: Yeah. I have to keep it in check. I have to work on it. Because an eight is the protector. I am often misunderstood, I think, in my life – because I come across as very intense, and sometimes intense can feel like intimidation. Sometimes people can be intimidated by my actions or by my intensity. So I really have to go and look at... not only the things that I want, but I also have to think about how I'm impacting others around me. And I have to present myself in a way that the way people perceive me isn't threatening or intimidating or anything like that – because I can do that. Right?

I also have to check all the things that are my underlying reasons why I do things. Eights are generally driven by kind of a lust. Not like in a sexual way, but like a lust for achievement, or a lust for possessions, or a lust for a specific title, or a lust for greatness. Those things are driving you. Right? And so, on a regular basis, I have to make sure I'm doing things for the right reason, and get those underlying issues under control – and really make sure that I'm moving in the direction I'm moving in for the right reasons.

I'm the first person to run into a burning building to help people. But I can also be very reactive. I can react to things on a trigger. And sometimes that's historically gotten me into trouble, because I react, and then I've either said something I didn't mean, or created an environment that's not healthy for everybody involved. I mean little things. Like, I wait 24 hours to return emails, so I can make sure that I'm clear.

I have to put a lot of discernment in my life, to help me manage that kind of ‘eight-ness’ that I am. Eights are often misunderstood. Usually, when you talk about the Enneagram, everybody's like, “Oh, yeah, I'm a one. I'm a seven. That's so awesome.” And when you say you're an eight, people are like, “Oh, I'm sorry.” It’s a challenging enneagram to carry on your shoulders, in my opinion. There’s this great podcast out there about Enneagrams. I encourage anyone to go into it. My wife's a seven, so she's very free-spirited, and always looking for an adventure. Sometimes, as the protector, I'm always looking for the danger, so to speak. So we've got to balance that too, in our relationship, which is a fun journey.

Ryan: In which ways do you think you might have been born this way, and in which ways did you experience power struggles as a child?

Eric: That's a really great question. I think, from what I've read, the Enneagram – a lot of it is based on the challenges that you may have faced as a child. Right? Like, it's the whole nurture versus nature question. And I don't know if I can parse out exactly where all that came from.

I think, as a young person, I was encouraged to really fight, right? Like, to fight for what you want; to go after it and get it. A “failure is not an option, and if you fail to prepare, then you should prepare to fail” kind of mentality. So, it was always like, “Go get it. You can do anything you want.” Which is a healthy choice. It's good to say, “If you go for it, you're going to get it. If you work hard, these things will happen.” But I think, under the right circumstances, then it becomes unhealthy. It becomes all-encompassing, and more of a focus on achievement. And I'm not sure how much of that is nurture versus nature, but I think I think a lot of it is nurture – just being driven towards a goal, and having your worth put on achievement.

Ryan: Well, you're clearly achieving in your current role on Stargirl. Tell me about that character.

Eric: The Gambler was created in the DC world. He is a supervillain. And I booked the role. Geoff Johns called me 30 minutes after I booked the job, and he gave me a rundown of who the character was. And it's really interesting. The Gambler is this manipulative, always on-guard chess player. He has no superpowers like all the other superheroes do. He doesn't have a ring, or ice that he shoots out. And he's always playing everybody. He's the villain amongst the villains.

When I got the role, I took a look at the history of The Gambler, and, I decided he was going to be one part Tony Soprano, one part riverboat gambler, and one part Colonel Sanders. And his driving force is that he walks through life kind of ‘syrupy.’ He's always presenting the person he needs to be to the people in front of him, based on what he wants. And he's going towards this endgame of getting personal possession and money, because in the show, he's the only character that doesn't have children.

It's a really cool dynamic to show, because the supervillains – what we're finding is, the supervillains are some of the fan favorites. It's because they're doing really bad things, but the show presents them as doing them for potentially legitimate reasons – because they have children; they have family. At the end of the day, they're trying to make the world better for their children, but they're doing it in awful ways, and they're deciding that life is potentially expendable in order to get what they want.

But the gambler doesn't have those ties. He doesn't have children. He doesn’t have a family. So he's only in it for the money. He's only in it for his own personal gain. And that makes him particularly dangerous. I've really enjoyed playing the character. I think it's a lot of fun. The thing I've really been surprised at is the fan support – the way people have embraced the story and the characters, because they've been following them their whole lives. That's been a surprising element of being on the show that I never expected, and it's arguably one of the most rewarding parts of it – because everyone who follows the show are just really kind people who just love comics. They love these stories. And it’s been rewarding to get to talk to them on a regular basis and interact with them online. It's been remarkable.

Ryan: In what ways does this supervillain have a soul?

Eric: That's a great question. Everyone is the hero in their own story, right? So I think, even to him, he's doing the right thing. I think he's hurt. His storyline is that he was in love with someone, and she ran away with somebody else because the guy had a windfall of money. I think he was hurt by that. And I think he has a soul... that's a great question. I think he has a soul in the sense that he's doing the best he can, given the tools he has, and he's working towards what he thinks he needs to be to be enlightened – to enjoy life.

Just because he has a soul doesn't mean it's directed in the right way. His soul is damaged; his soul is hurt. And he's responding in the only way he knows how. Ultimately, you would argue that his soul needs to be saved. His soul needs to be cured of what's driving him.

Ryan: But it sounds like his spiritual journey is one of adapting to vice in some sort of way that vice might be a virtue in his soul. Is that fair?

Eric: That's absolutely fair.

Ryan: So, his endgame might be taking him to a very dark place, but he believes that the very dark place is actually conforming with the greatest understanding of reality.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think he thinks where he's heading will ultimately give him happiness, right? He thinks that what he needs in order to be comfortable and happy is personal possession. Not love; not relationship; not anything except personal possessions; earthly goods. But, at the end of the day, he feels like he's on a valiant, legitimate journey, and he'll do whatever he needs to get what he wants – even if it means hurting people.

Ryan: Why do you think you're able to channel this kind of essence and play this character so well?

Eric: That's a great question, because I don't particularly think I'm an evil guy with misguided ambition. What I had to do as a performer is try to figure out how I wanted to present the character. When I looked at who The Gambler was, I decided that, in all situations, he needed to be likable. He had to have a smile on his face, he had to be good-humored, and he had to be personable. And I can do those things.

What I allow to happen is, I allow the context of the situation – the writing, the storyline – to really provide the kind of evilness to who The Gambler is. But I play him in a way that isn't necessarily nefarious in any way, shape or form. He's not this evil person who's like, “I'm going to get you;” that kind of thing. He's acting in a kind way sometimes, and he's doing what he's told. He’s smiling on his face, and he's saying ‘yes sir’ and ‘no sir.’ It's the context of the story that is really driving the audience's perception of who he is.

That juxtaposition between what's really going on in the story and how I play The Gambler, I think, is particularly effective – because he becomes likable not only to the characters in the show, but also the audience that's watching it. And they have to go, “Wait a minute; this guy is doing horrible things. Does he really mean what he says, and what he's doing? Or is he about to stab somebody in the chest? Because I don't know.” And that's what I can bring to the table. I can bring a personable quality to The Gambler that, in my opinion, makes him arguably more dangerous within the context of the story. And I think context, to any story, is so incredibly important – whether you're on stage or on television or film.

So, that's how I kind of present the character. Let the context drive the evilness of the character, and then let my personality rise in contrast to that – which makes him even more of a supervillain than some of the ones that have superpowers.

Ryan: Try this on with me. Years ago, I did a four-day workshop in LA for fun that was hosted by a casting director, but it had nothing to do with trying to get parts in productions. It was hosted by this casting director, and it was for professionals. It was for them to come in and spend these four days, and for the casting director to get to know them, and to listen to who they were or are as people. And at the end of these four days, he then laid out for you seven essences of who you are as a person – according to those around you, how you're perceived.

It wasn't necessarily about who you actually are. It was about who the society around you believed you might be. It was in order to help you understand the roles that society would allow you to play with credibility, and then understand that if you were trying to do something in life that was outside of the realm of what society would naturally allow you to play, that you were just going to have to overcome that. If you were trying to play roles – like, in this case, play roles that you were naturally suited to, and that everybody around you perceived you as naturally suited to – then it would just be easier, because socially, you would be given license to play these roles. Are you with me so far?

Eric: Oh yeah.

Ryan: I think it's very interesting. And so, when I heard you talking about playing The Gambler, it made me reflect back to this time when he said to me – one of the essences he gave me, as he said, “I could have gone the other way.” That was the essence. “I could have gone the other way.” And we were trying to explore this. I said, “What do you mean by that?”

He goes, “Well, what I mean by that is, you come across as somebody who has a really introspective soul, but a person who has a really introspective soul can go in many different directions.” And so, the characters – at the time, he was walking through these characters that Matt Damon would play. He'd say, “I could see you playing the kind of characters Matt Damon plays.” Sometimes Matt Damon can be the good guy, but then, when he shows up in The Talented Mr. Ripley, and in the middle, like, totally, is revealed to be this evil, evil person. It actually works, because he has the kind of soul that you could say, “Oh my gosh; he totally fooled me.”

Or, in this case... I listen to you, and you clearly have a very deep, introspective soul. So, when they put you in this role of a supervillain, it actually makes sense, because the only way you could be a supervillain is if you actually still had the capacity inside to be a super good guy. You could have been a superhero just as well as a supervillain. That's what makes the character effective.

Eric: So, I know who you're talking about. Are you talking about Sam Christiansen?

Ryan: Exactly. Sam Christiansen. That's funny. What a small world.

Eric: Super small world. I took the same workshop.

Ryan: Amazing.

Eric: And that was really an enlightening moment for me as a human being. I'm so glad we're discussing that. Because it's true. Right? We could talk another hour about this. Maybe longer. We all exist on a spectrum, right? I can go to each side of the spectrum. So, when I came through Sam Christiansen's workshop, the word he gave me, the one that defines me – because he thinks that every human being exists to show the rest of the world what the perfect essence they hold is.

Mine was reactivity. While I can be super reactive on one end of the spectrum, I can also identify on the other end where I can shut down in a minute. Like, if I'm in a place where I'm uncomfortable, or discussing a topic I don't like, I'll shut down. But that exists on all of our behaviors, right? I can be those things. So, what you're saying echoes 100% to me. Some of my essence statements were, like...

Ryan: I was going to ask you. Do you remember some of your essence statements?

Eric: Oh, I always have them. I always have them right next to me. “The butcher is the most popular bachelor in the village.” “The plumber works on weekends.” But I'm also, “don't push the detonate button. Don't, don't, don't – oh. Duck!”

Ryan: That’s so good.

Eric: “Loyal occasionally to the point of self-neglect.”

Ryan: I love that.

Eric: “Mr. Smith, the honest politician.” “Short fuse, surprise explosions.” “The friendly neighborhood butcher dreams of being an opera singer.” “The Saint Bernard may drool a bit, but he's still the star of the family.” And the list goes on and on. That was probably... not only did that help me as an actor. And by the way, Sam unfortunately passed about a year ago. But there are people here in Atlanta who have picked up his mantle and are teaching here in Atlanta on his behalf under his guidance with his team, that are still doing those workshops.

And they just so happen to be my best friends. They teach the class, but they're also my daughter's godparents. We go to church together, and they're carrying on Sam's legacy here in Atlanta, which is incredible. So there's still tons of people taking that class. Not only did it help me as an actor – because it did tell me that thing. It told me that it doesn't matter what I think of me. What matters is how the world perceives me. And that's kind of what I was talking about, as an eight. I’ve got to check myself as to how the world perceives me, because that's arguably more important than how I perceive myself.

But it also helped me with the relationship with my wife. My wife and I took it together. We took it the same weekend. And at the end of it, Sam said, “Okay, Eric. Your word is ‘reactivity.’” And my wife, Lauren, and I looked at each other, and she was like, “Oh my gosh. That's so true.” And then he goes, “Lauren, you are ‘anticipation.’” I looked at her, and I was like, “Oh my gosh.” Literally, those two words.

You know how, when you have a disagreement; generally, when disagreements get bad, it's not about the topic at hand. It's about how you present your side of the position. You can be right, but still say your side wrong, and that and that becomes ineffective in a conversation. Those were the things. My wife's a seven. And her word that Sam came up with is ‘anticipation.’ If you know about the Enneagram, that is spot on. And that was before we did the Enneagram.

So, now we understand that when I bring out my reactivity, and my wife, Lauren, brings out her anticipation, those are just who we are as people. And when I'm reactive towards something, she's learned to understand me – that I'm not being overly protective. I'm just being my essence. And so, while I adjust to make sure the world around me sees me in the proper way, the people who I have closest to me understand who I am at my soul, at my deepest level, and they can give me the benefit of the doubt sometimes. You know what I mean? I thought that was a really cool tool for a married couple, because we looked at each other, and we're like, “Oh my gosh.”

Ryan: Yeah. My ex-wife and I did it together, the same thing, before we had children. And we still to this day joke about those essences.

Eric: Oh, we joke all the time about it. I mean, we actually use them. If something's going on between us, I'll be like, “You're being very anticipatory right now,” and she'll be like, “Well, you're being reactive.” It's like, “Oh yeah. That is so true. I can't help it.”

I think what Sam has created is one of the most special things that an actor or a person can be a part of. Honestly, it was the first time my wife saw me cry out loud. It was during that weekend. And I'm not trying to give the impression that it's like this. “You're going to go in and get broken down, and you're going to feel these emotions.” I don't want to scare anyone away from it. But I allowed myself to be vulnerable for a moment. And my wife got to see my true feelings on a subject that we had never talked about before. That was really special.

Ryan: Your friends that have picked up Sam's mantle – what is the name of their company? How can people find that online? Do you know?

Eric: Yeah. My friends Matt and Brooke – we both run... it's so funny. We're best friends, and we have competing businesses. We both run businesses that help support actors in the market. We both run taping services. Mine's called Compass, but theirs is called Get Taped. Under their umbrella, they run, basically, the Sam Christiansen workshops.

So, I think the best way to find it is to look up Sam Christiansen online. And out of their LA website, they'll have a link to the Atlanta classes here. I can also give you the information offline, and that way, you'll have it. So, if anybody asks you about it, you can give it to them firsthand.

Ryan: Yeah. That's great.

Eric: But Matt and Brooke are dear friends of ours. They're my daughter's godparents. And it couldn't be two better people. I don't know if there are two better people that could have helped take up Sam's mantle here locally, because they care about his work, and the evolution of the human spirit. They care about it in the same way that he did.

Ryan: Well, Sam was a real legendary casting director. There's no doubt he was. Some people wouldn't know this, I guess, but everybody in the industry would know that he was the casting director for M.A.S.H. – which, obviously, was a worldwide success.

Eric: He did his thesis on Hamlet, and what he recognized was that people weren't going to see Hamlet over and over again, necessarily, just to see Hamlet again. They were going to see the particular person playing Hamlet give their interpretation of it. Hamlet is one of the most widely done plays in history, so he found it interesting that people would go back again and again and again. It wasn't to see Hamlet as much as it was to say, “I want to see this particular actor do Hamlet,” which I think is interesting.

Ryan: No; that makes perfect sense. And I think it was also interesting because I believe Sam was Danish.

Eric: Yeah, probably. I don't know what his heritage is, but what a what a delightful, loving man. I'm so glad we got to talk about him today.

Ryan: I agree. I remember him telling a really funny story about going to Denmark. He said, “I get off the plane, and I start walking through the city, and I say to myself, why haven't I come here before? Everyone here is beautiful.”

Eric: Sam had a beautiful soul.

Ryan: He had a beautiful soul, and he was a beautiful man. He was physically just a beautiful man. He could have been an actor himself. I'm not sure if he did any acting.

Eric: He definitely had the self-introspection and the depth of character to do it, for sure

Ryan: That is for sure. Well, Eric, I am so thrilled that you are in Atlanta, and the entertainment industry is fortunate to have someone as soulful as yourself committed to this space. I really appreciate you being on the podcast with us today.

Eric: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure, and I really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks a lot.

Ryan: Thank you, Eric. Great job. Really appreciate it. That was fascinating and fun. I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios podcast.

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Ryan: Putting an exclamation point on the end of each podcast, I share inspirational sayings that I write and share on Instagram. “Happiness does not originate in the mind. We do not think ourselves, or will ourselves, into happiness. We can only find happiness in pure being. And that pure being is the deepest mystery and the truest truth. It is everything we have ever desired flowing right now through all things. Tapping into that this very minute is possible and worth everything.”

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.