Ryan Millsap Meets the Meditating CEO, Sanjay Sehgal

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, CEO of Blackhall Studios in Atlanta, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Why does a busy Hollywood studio do a podcast, you might ask? Blackhall is the home of great movies like Jumanji: The Next Level and fan-favorite series like HBO's Lovecraft Country. But for me, hosting a podcast is an amazing way to meet people and to connect to the community. I learn from each interview and from each person. My roots are actually in America's heartland. My mother's from Nebraska. My father's from Missouri. And though some folks might think I've ‘gone Hollywood,’ I'm now just an Atlanta boy who loves to meet new and interesting people. And yes, some of them will just happen to be famous Hollywood types.

I'm a dad; a businessman. I live on a farm out in Social Circle, and I love the peace and quiet there. But I also love to learn about the philosophy of human nature. So why a podcast? That's why. Thank you for joining me on this journey. I appreciate you.

Who can tell you what the difference is between intelligence and wisdom? I know someone: Mr. Sanjay Sehgal. That's who. As CEO of MSys Technologies, Sanjay Sehgal is one complex guy. From technology entrepreneur to global businessman, to startup advisor, keynote speaker, philanthropist, self-proclaimed heartful human, meditation instructor, and self-development enthusiast, Sanjay Sehgal is part of his own self-development journey. We cover a lot here on this podcast, so pay attention.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap. Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Today we are fortunate to have Sanjay Sehgal, CEO of MSys Technologies. He's a multi-talented person; a philosophical mind and soul. Sanjay, welcome to the program.

Sanjay: Thanks, Ryan, for having me today.

Ryan: We were joking earlier that your last name is spelled ‘s-e-h-g-a-l,’ but it's pronounced ‘Seagal,’ as in Steven Seagal. And what did you tell me?

Sanjay: I said, “Well, I'm the better-looking cousin of Steven Seagal.”

Ryan: That's a fantastic response, by the way. Tell us a little bit about your career, and then I want to ask you a bunch of questions about the role of character in business.

Sanjay: Sure, Ryan. I have been in the technology industry for about 30 years, though I spent the first few decades of my life in India – that's where I grew up, and I did my studies there. But then I came here in the early 90s, as part of my professional journey. And I've been here since then.

Incidentally, the majority of the time – I would say 99% of the time away from India has been in Atlanta. So now, this is home. As part of this professional journey, I worked for a few companies – technology companies – and then I got into the entrepreneurial journey. And then, I have done a few startups here in town. Currently, I'm running MSys Technologies.

I think I saw you had trouble pronouncing that name, and that is by design – so that you will never forget that name now. MSys Technologies; that's the name of the company that I run. I founded that a few years ago, and we have about 1000 employees worldwide, including an office in Atlanta, in California, and several places in India.

And besides that – I mean, there is a second facet to my journey that also started around the same time when I landed here in Atlanta. And that was the journey of self-development, or meditation. I took up a practice of heartfulness meditation more than 29 years ago, and have been practicing since then. And I also teach that meditation free of charge – without charging anything to anyone who is interested. We have thousands of people that have been trained in that. And that, I feel, is something that comes from my heart.

There's a very popular book I have also read; in case you haven't read it, you should it's called “The Monk Who Sold His Ferrari.” I consider myself a monk who has kept his Ferrari – because I think, as part of this journey, I feel it's not necessary for you to sell your Ferrari, or sell any material belongings that you have. The important thing is to not be attached to it. I think that's a teaching that is the basis of the meditation that I practice and teach. It has been a great journey of, I would say, giving back to society, or giving back to the place that I live now, and also to take other fellow travelers along with me in this journey of life.

Ryan: Give me the 60-second version of a teaching of meditation.

Sanjay: In 60 seconds, meditation is a journey of mind to the heart. Someone once said, “The longest 18 inches you will ever travel in your life is the head to the heart.” And that's the journey of meditation. All our existence has been in acting, reacting, focusing, analyzing everything that is related to our mind. We have to go to our heart. Passion, compassion – qualities like that. Love. Those are the things that we need to learn.

Ryan: So, I have this working theory that I've mentioned on this podcast before – that the most important information that we can gather is the information that our body is giving us from the neck down.

Sanjay: Absolutely.

Ryan: How would you try to explain that notion to our listeners?

Sanjay: See, one of the benefits of meditation that many scientists have proven – they call it... it gives us the ability of divergent thinking, which means being able to analyze all the millions of possible permutations and combinations in any given situation, and split the result. Some people call it intuition; others call it gut feelings. But I will go with ‘the voice of the heart.’

And that, too – when you say ‘neck down,’ the body is giving you signals. Those are coming from the heart. Now, scientists have also proven that there are many nerve centers, and in fact, the most important nerve centers – they are in your heart. So, the heart gives you the signal every time you're doing something wrong. Your heart will be normal when things are right, but your heart will be the first one to make its presence felt if you're doing something wrong. Try yelling at someone. Try telling something that is not a truth. You will feel something in your heart.

You may have heard that many of the ‘lie detector’ tests – they use that. And, of course, people have learned to fake it now, because anything that is a signal reading can be dodged as well. But the positive way – if you want to learn something good in your life – learn to listen to the voice of your heart.

Ryan: The voice of the heart. How does that begin to impact your brain?

Sanjay: The brain? If you are a student of meditation, you will soon find that you will be better served by not listening to your brain as much as you should listen to your heart. Then your brain will become a good tool in your hands – a tool that you can change; you can modify; you can use to get things done.

Ryan: I've always thought of the heart – well, I shouldn't say ‘always.’ In my reflections on this, over the years, I've developed this theory that the heart is really our compass, and the brain is just a calculator.

Sanjay: Perfect. I love that. If you don't mind, I would like to use it someplace.

Ryan: You use it wherever you like.

Sanjay: The heart is a compass. The brain is a calculator. Absolutely. Right. It's a good rule.

Ryan: Because I have to somehow get in touch with my heart enough that I can hear its voice of direction – so that I can then use my brain to get wherever my heart wants to go.

Sanjay: Absolutely.

Ryan: It seems to me that that's the secret to actual human happiness.

Sanjay: There you go. That's what I think, Ryan, I was telling you about – the thing that I'm writing these days. An article on human intelligence versus wisdom. And that, precisely, is the crux of that blog article. I mean, intelligence is more about calculation; the analytical ability one has. Typically, people associate intelligence or ‘smartness’ with those things. And wisdom comes from your heart. Wisdom comes from how often you have reflected upon things and learned from the situations.

People think that wisdom comes from your experience, which means the older you get, the wiser you become. But it's not true. It's not really the quantity of experience, but the quality of experience that one has lived through. And then, that comes through contemplative practices like meditation, where you learn to use your heart as a compass.

Ryan: What are some of the characteristics that you imagine – and wisdom that you see lacking, generally, in our society today?

Sanjay: You know, there is a very popular saying. They say that a fool learns from his own mistakes, where the wise man learns from the mistakes of others. And to me, that says it all. A fool thinks himself to be wise, whereas a wise man thinks himself to be a fool. I mean, that's another way of saying the same thing, right? To me, wisdom is learning from others. Instead of you going through the same situation; a similar situation in your life, you can learn from watching others going through a situation like that.

Ryan: How do you learn from others in the heart?

Sanjay: Well, typically people think of intelligence being more of data analytics. A person is analytical; has the ability to understand things, analyze things, and learn from it. Whereas wisdom, to me, is more like a reflection. Wisdom comes from reflecting on situations, whether you are going through those, or even when you see others going through it. Now, the heart is not a repository of all that information. That information is always in your mind. The calculator, as you said. But your heart will indicate to you right or wrong. A compass, as you said.

Ryan: Where do you think creativity lies? Do you think that's more brain or heart work?

Sanjay: It's a combination. The left brain; right brain. The information related to creativity is always stored in the brain. But the feeling that drives that information, that gives you access to that information, comes from the heart. When you see something, and it drives you, where does that drive come from? Does it come from the mind or the heart? To me, it comes from the heart. If the heart likes, the heart wants you to jump.

Ryan: So, there's an area of philosophy called virtue ethics. And I have a number of friends who are professors in this area. It's their specialty. And what they spend all their time trying to understand is the impact of the health of the soul on the ability to think well.

Sanjay: Beautiful.

Ryan: Yeah. How do you respond to that? Do you think that character has impact on intelligence?

Sanjay: Absolutely. I'm glad the discussion is going in the direction that it is, being a student of meditation. To me, the soul is the guiding light in your life. Without realizing its presence, we cannot pull ourselves to our own existence. To me, everything has to come from, has to emanate from, the light of the soul. And it has nothing to do with the religious background one has, but the inner presence. To me, the heart is a window to the soul. And that's where we talk about the heart.

Ryan: In your experience meditating, do you believe the universe has personality?

Sanjay: Universe has personality? Well, philosophically speaking, the universe is beyond all the definitions of personality we can think of. But it will have a personality based on my level of consciousness at any given time.

Ryan: Right. That's kind of where I'm going. I mean, when you're meditating, do you hear the voice of the universe guiding you, teaching you, directing you?

Sanjay: Yes. And it is, at that time, dependent upon where I am in my own evolutionary journey. To me, meditation is the journey of evolution. Evolution of consciousness. The consciousness which includes your soul, includes your mind, includes your heart – that is the all-encompassing thing that you know, that guides you through your life, that makes you understand things as you need to. Yes – you hear from the universe, which is your inner voice, and you take action based on that.

Ryan: A very wise man told me one time. He said that “the voice of the universe is always speaking. The question is whether or not your soul can absorb the vibration and understand what it's saying.”

Sanjay: That's absolutely right, I think. And, to me, your ability to absorb depends on how evolved you are in your consciousness.

Ryan: So, when you say ‘consciousness,’ I hear kind of a ‘soul-state character’ more than, like, mental consciousness. Is that the way you're intending to use that word?

Sanjay: To me, consciousness consists of your mind, your heart, and your soul. So yes – you can say your character. Consciousness is a field. Character is how you manifest it. You cannot manifest your consciousness, but through how you behave, your ethics and your morals are the manifestation of your consciousness. If that makes sense.

Ryan: No, that makes perfect sense. I mean, Aristotle fundamentally believed that the core of your character determines the entire existence of your linear life – that there was no way to escape bad character.

Sanjay: Absolutely. Ryan, I looked at your bio, and you have studied philosophy, and you were a professor as well. Recently, I have become friends with a professor of ethics from Kansas University. I don't know whether you’ve heard of him. Doctor Clancy Martin.

Ryan: I don't know Clancy Martin.

Sanjay: Okay, you may want to look him up. He has a course called Everyday Ethics, or Moral Decision-Making. And me and him have been having these conversations about consciousness and its manifestation through your morals, and ethics – hence the character, and all that stuff. Very interesting.

Ryan: How do you believe that seeking character, or seeking goodness, or seeking soulfulness, has a positive impact on your business?

Sanjay: See, the times have changed now. There was a time, I feel... In the present time, the collective consciousness of humanity has come to a level where the leadership styles from now and in the future years have changed. If you look at – let's take an example of a company like Microsoft, or Google, or Apple, even. From the autocratic style of its founders, we have come to see even bigger success in those companies through the inclusive style of their leaderships.

Now, that, to me, is a result of evolving consciousness in leadership, or the impact of that seeking in businesses. I'm giving those examples of those companies, because those are the companies that we hear about every day. But in my own business, I have seen that it has given me... I mean, in my first startup versus what I do now, it has been a difference of day and night. I mean, there was a time when I felt, unless I do something, it is not done well – to a style now where I have more peaceful days and nights, because I develop others to do things, and I find my happiness in their accomplishments.

Ryan: Inside of your company, do you try to help develop the character of your employees, or do you just try to employ people that already have a good foundational depth of wisdom?

Sanjay: In fact, I was having this discussion this morning, with my chief operating officer. I said, “Well, I hired everybody without employing any technique that I am writing about now, and I'm helping them develop that character now.” When I hired them, I did not look at any of those things.

Ryan: How do you do it now? How do you begin to assess somebody's wisdom?

Sanjay: I am not assessing. I am helping them develop that.

Ryan: Well, I'm talking about somebody new. Let's say that you were going to hire somebody into an important role as an officer of a company that you were invested in, or running. How might you begin to assess someone's wisdom?

Sanjay: Sure. Okay. I actually have a recorded a video on this topic. One of the first characteristics I look at is, “Does the person have leadership qualities?” Now, leadership, to me here, doesn't mean... I mean, I may be hiring, let's say, someone as an architect, where he's a single contributor; an individual contributor. He's not going to manage others. But how well does he lead himself? How do I read that? How do I assess it?

I ask them some simple life questions and see how they respond to that. And if they have the ‘victim mentality’ – if they are going to blame others; blame the environment, blame the lack of education, lack of facilities, lack of this, lack of that, or the leadership or the government or this or that – I would know that this person does not have good leadership qualities. In my assessment, a good leader is a person who can lead his life well, and who does not blame others or other situations for anything that he is not able to achieve in his life.

That is one of the characteristics for me. A very important one, when I hire a person now. And beyond that, I think that you can see how well they have learned from their own mistakes. I mean they say, “A wise person will know before getting into a hole.” Right? So how would they prevent themselves from getting into a hole?

Ryan: It's difficult to develop intuition. Sometimes it feels like you're either born with good intuition, or... Right?

Sanjay: That is absolutely right, because intuition is not a certificate. We get so attracted to what our mind spits out, right? And what is written somewhere is that “intuition is boring.” You're right, Ryan – intuition is very boring. I mean, other than in movies where they say, “I felt this,” and something else happened, and something appears. One of those. There are some movies about those, I guess – where intuition makes you manifest something in physical form.

Ryan: When I talk to young people who desire to be entrepreneurs, one of the things I encourage them to do is to get to know themselves so well, and to listen so intently for the voice of the universe, that they might be able to make decisions without data. Do you think that's wisdom?

Sanjay: That is wisdom. Absolutely.

Ryan: Because the second part of that working theory is that we are brainwashing our MBAs into not being able to have wisdom – because the only thing they know to do is crunch data.

Sanjay: That is true.

Ryan: The problem with data is, it’s only history. And if you want to be a great entrepreneur, you need to be able to write the history.

Sanjay: Yes. I mean, the greatest entrepreneur of all time – Newton. The apple fell many times before Newton. Apples have been falling since then. Right?

Ryan: But somebody actually had the intuition to interpret it.

Sanjay: Yes. So, I think that entrepreneurship is more intuition, less data. I think data is needed. We shouldn't discount that completely, because that will really help you position yourself properly. But I think, even after having data... I think they used to say that about Einstein, Ryan. Anytime he got stuck in a problem, he would think 99 times. He would keep count of how many times he's going over the problem. Then he will drop it, and he'll leave it for a day. And that day, he would swim a lot; play violin a lot. And he has written in his diaries that the answer would come to him.

Ryan: I completely agree with that.

Sanjay: So, it's not that he was discounting data. Having all the data in your system – I think you need to let the divergent thinking work, and that comes from the ways of the heart.

Ryan: And I agree with you about how you want to have all the data that you can have. But because data is inherently the past, it's sometimes... Well, it can be very helpful in making decisions about an industry that has a lot of data – not discounting that. What I'm talking about is these beautiful opportunities as an entrepreneur, when you realize “I'm making decisions about a space that nobody's made decisions like this about before. And so there is there is no data.”

Sanjay: There is no data. Absolutely.

Ryan: That's where the greatest opportunities lie in America today, because we've taken so many of our intelligent people, given them no courses or help in trying to develop their intuitive soul; their wise heart. And then we've sent them into the world to conduct business.

Sanjay: Yes.

Ryan: Which is why, when people ask me whether philosophy has had any positive impact on my business life, I tell them it's the only thing that's made the difference.

Sanjay: Oh, very good.

Ryan: Because philosophy is all about the soul being in tune with actual reality.

Sanjay: Absolutely.

Ryan: So, what kind of practices... I mean, some traditions call it spiritual exercise. What kind of exercises, besides meditation, do you do, or might you recommend, for people to develop the voice of their heart?

Sanjay: In this heartfulness meditation that I practice and I teach, we have three practices that we teach. One is meditation – which most people have heard of. But most people who have heard about meditation, they think about some breathing exercises, or things like that – ‘clearing,’ and things like that – to be meditation. Whereas, in heartfulness, we suggest focusing on your heart. And you’re taught of that inner light in your heart. As I said, the heart is a window to your soul. So, through your heart, you can develop that connection with your soul. How? By resting your mind on that.

That is the practice of meditation that we do every morning. And that is something that may sound very simple, but it’s not very easy, because your mind has 60,000 thoughts, or 70,000 thoughts, a day. So, the moment you sit for meditation, and you're not trying to breathe, not trying to do any physical exercise, or anything physical, all those thoughts come and start bombarding you. So, you have to learn that art of ignoring other thoughts; staying focused on the thought of that inner light in your heart – and then immerse yourself in that light, so that you go into the deeper levels of your own consciousness.

Ryan: The light, and the voice that we find deep in the center of our being... Do you think that's only our being, or do you think there's an externality to that?

Sanjay: That is the being which connects us to all other beings. If you go even into deeper philosophies – which I think have been echoing in almost everything that I have been doing, and I've been saying – so I think it’s so nice to be talking to you. I think that externality is what connects us to everybody else.

Ryan: So, the externality – and the reason I ask this is, I experience what you're talking about in my spiritual practice; my spiritual exercises. I experience being bathed in light and hearing the voice of the universe that feels very distinct from my own voice. And I attribute personality to that, like the universe has feeling. Do you experience that?

Sanjay: Absolutely. But I think you will go through the phases, Ryan. That personality will evolve over time. And I'm sure you would have experienced that too. I mean, what it's telling you today versus what it tells you tomorrow, versus the day after, and over the years. It just changes.

Ryan: I agree with that. That's why it feels so personal, and why it feels so conscious.

Sanjay: Yes. And, Ryan, I did want to tell you one more thing. You asked me “what other spiritual exercises?” So, the second exercise that I teach, and I practice – we call it as cleaning, or cleansing of the mind. And if you have heard of terms like ‘synaptic pruning...’ I don't know whether you have or not.

Ryan: I haven’t. Tell me about synaptic pruning.

Sanjay: I mean, you've heard of synaptic pruning. The process is something that happens every night in our brain. The clearing process that we do – it's a mental exercise. We are able to expedite that synaptic pruning of impressions, or imprints, of various things that we have gone through during the course of the day. Like, when we are sleeping, certain things get eliminated from our brain, except the memory of those.

So, the clearing exercise that we teach for the evening time – you can expedite that process so you have less things to process at night. You sleep better, and things don't get stuck with you. Things which can start controlling your behavior from today onwards – they don't stick with you forever.

Ryan: And how do you do it? You do this consciously, or your brain is just doing the synaptic pruning?

Sanjay: You do that consciously. But the important thing is, without thinking about any specific thing. It’s like a catch-22. You cannot remove your memory, or your impression, because you are in control of that impression. Let's say you're angry at somebody. Now, you want to remove the impact of that anger. You cannot; when you're in anger, it's like a whirlpool. I mean, you are just getting sucked into it, right? We all have experienced that situation. You cannot remove that anger while being angry.

So here, we suggest that you do not think about any specific thing. It's a process of auto-suggestion. “All imprints and impressions in me are leaving me.” In heartfulness practice – just like we mentioned that the heart has several nerve centers, the things around the spinal cord – I mean, I'm sure you've heard of the spinal cord having an important place in yogic practices, right? Around the your spinal cord are the vestibules where all these impressions or imprints are stored before they go into your brain.

So, through that, we have a process of auto-suggestion where you eliminate all those as smoke from your spinal cord area. All the impressions and impurities. The important thing is, without thinking about them – because, if you start thinking about them, you will become very subjective. “I don't want to remove this. I want to remove this.” Things like that.

Ryan: So, I've been doing a thought experiment – which is also a spiritual exercise, in my opinion – for years, about imagining being 80. 80s doesn't feel that old. I know a lot of really fit 80-year-olds, but it's always been a thought experiment about my 80-year-old self. Maybe we’ll make it my 100-year-old self, but let's just call it my 80-year-old self.

I say, “What would my 80-year-old self tell me actually matters in this situation? What would my 80-year-old self tell me actually matters in life?” What do you think your 80-year-old self – or maybe you know what your 80-year-old self would tell you actually matters about life.

Sanjay: Very interesting. You know, Ryan – when I started meditation, I was quite young. I mean, as I told you, I have been doing it for about 28, 29 years. And, at that age, the last thing one thinks about is meditation. But my motivation for doing meditation was actually when I looked at some older people who were part of my family. All the time, their mind was always full of regrets; things that they couldn't do.

I said, “I don't want to grow old like this.” And I met an older person who was full of light. I said, “That's how I want to be.” And he told me, “It's because of meditation.” Then I started my journey of seeking. It's really interesting that you mentioned that. I have written some things about living life with no regrets. And I mean young or old. You can do that at any age.

Ryan: So, the theory that I have about the heart being the compass ties in to this theory about happiness that I experience. But I think it’s not just true for me; I imagine it being true for everyone. If you can tap into the light of the universe, and the voice of the universe, and the voice of your own heart – which are different. I think the voice of your own heart is different than the voice of the universe, in my experience.

But if you can tap into those things, and actually hear the true voice of your heart – the true longings of your heart – and you listen to those, and you use them as a compass, and you set out on a journey to fulfill the desires of your heart – the journey itself is joy.

Sanjay: Man, Ryan, you're stealing my words. Enjoy the journey. You don't have to wait for the destination. Absolutely, man.

Ryan: But yet, if you're not really deeply tuned in to what the destination you long for is, that actually steals the joy from the present.

Sanjay: Yes. But then, once you start enjoying the journey itself... Then, even if you have reached the destination, who cares?

Ryan: Well, that's right. If your deepest longing in life – like, one of my deep, deep longings in life is for freedom. Like, true human freedom. Wake up; blank sheet of paper. “What am I going to imagine my life to be?” That is one of my deepest heart longings. If I have to choose between submitting to the will of a tyrant, and then giving up the dream of freedom – that feels like death. And so, I would rather die fighting for freedom than live under the power – the abusive power – of a tyrant. So, that shorter life lived in rebellion against tyranny is actually more joyful than a life lived in false peace.

Sanjay: It is absolutely right, Ryan. And I think the biggest tyrant here, philosophically speaking, is the impact of our own impressions. I mean, you don't need a tyrant ruler above us or a tyrant boss above us. We can be our biggest enemy here.

Ryan: You're talking about the ego?

Sanjay: The ego. The terminology I use – impressions – here means everything that you see. That includes your ego; that includes your behavior pattern that you have, that you haven't been able to grow out of. And everything that makes you a slave of itself. Right?

Ryan: I heard a really wonderful philosophical phrase in a very odd place – which was on an NFL broadcast. It was the old tight end, Tony Gonzalez, and he was talking about God-knows-what on these teams. But then he said this phrase that I thought was so fantastic. He said, “Ego has no amigo.” Isn't that good? I mean, that belongs on a hat. “Ego has no amigo.” How have you been able to keep your ego in check? Or have you been able to not listen to the voice of your ego in the midst of all the success that you've had?

Sanjay: I think, when I mentioned to you about the clearing process – synaptic pruning and all – that's what it does. Over time, it removes things from you that you become a slave of – whether it be guilt, whether it be your ego. I mean, anything that you think is not needed in your system. We are all used to, Ryan, doing things consciously. What heartfulness practice teaches, or takes one through a journey of, is things happening to you without your knowledge.

Ryan: Do you have children?

Sanjay: Yes.

Ryan: How old are they?

Sanjay: I have a 24-year-old boy. He graduated recently from Georgia Tech. He's also one of, I would say, a few fellow meditators who have been doing it for 6 to 8 years – I think six years or so, now.

Ryan: So you have just one son?

Sanjay: I have just one son. Yes.

Ryan: What are some of the involuntary prayers of your heart for your son?

Sanjay: It's beautiful. I think that prayer was several years ago – for him to find the right path in his life. And that prayer, I felt, was answered when, one day, he asked my teacher that he wanted to learn meditation. I never had to tell him anything about it, and I think I felt that prayer was answered because he's on the path now that will guide him in anything that he does.

Ryan: That is a beautiful answer. I love to hear that. I mean, if more parents could understand that the answer for their children could only be found inside of their own children, we might be able to guide them toward wisdom.

Sanjay: Many times, I have gone to... let's say, some churches in town, or other places – community centers – to give a talk on meditation or something. And people ask me, “Oh, can you teach children?” I said, “Well, I’d rather teach adults, and they’ll be the role models for their children at home.” Children will automatically learn. I mean, more things people learn by watching, by observing, than by somebody telling them.

Ryan: Wordsworth believed that children were natural meditators. That, in fact, their lives were actually the goal of adult meditation.

Sanjay: Yes.

Ryan: Why do you think that might be true?

Sanjay: See, the mind... I think that, in our heartfulness, we talk about these impressions, we see that impressions start developing in the human mind after you cross the age of 4 or 5. When you start developing strong likes and dislikes. We have, actually, a yogic point for likes and dislikes, because everything emanates from that – likes and dislikes.

A child, when he's under the age of 4 or 5 – he just listens to you. He does what you tell him to do. What you like, he likes. His mind has not developed. So that is the best age, actually, for him to be able to focus on anything that he wants to, and then he can learn. Once his mind starts developing, he just kind of goes all over. Then he wants to try new things. Of course, we have to do all that. So, in heartfulness, we suggest the meditation to be learned once you are at the age of 15 or 16. Not earlier than that.

Ryan: No; I think that's fair. I think the practice of meditation requires that maturity. I think that what Wordsworth was exploring was the possibility that... He observed children who had yet not been corrupted, let's say, in some way or another; or hurt, or experienced trauma – but children who were born with a blank page of joy were deeply in tune with the light and the voice of the universe without having to seek it.

Sanjay: Absolutely. And my teacher – he teaches that the best time for a soul to embark on a spiritual journey is the time of conception. Now, of course, at the time of conception, there is no body; there is no person to teach meditation and all that. But then, it is through the parents. The mindset; the attitude of parents at the time of conception.

Both me and my wife – we were doing meditation prior to us meeting together, and prior to us getting married. And our conception of our son happened while we were both meditators, and trainers, and all that. So, even though we never talked to him about it – we don't have a place of worship that he goes to, where he's taught, or anything like that – of course, he picked up these things through us. He imbibed all those things, just by observing us – right from the womb, till he achieved the age of 15 or 16. That's when he wanted to do it himself. And he's a very serious meditator now.

Ryan: The area of epigenetics suggests that the goodness and the evil of parents is genetically passed to their children.

Sanjay: Yeah, absolutely. I believe that. I mean, epigenetics... the attitude and everything else is part of that. Right?

Ryan: Exactly. It’s, somehow, the genetic imprint of virtue. Obviously, every human has all their own choices that begin to affect their epigenetics. Right? Switching things. But all of that epigenetics is then prepared and passed in conception.

Sanjay: Yes, absolutely.

Ryan: So, all of that preparation that you're talking about – the soulfulness, the state of being – is either something that is given to a child as a gift, or as a curse to be overcome.

Sanjay: Yes. A curse to be overcome. And you can overcome it.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the beauty, right? I talked about Aristotle earlier. Aristotle believed that, if you're if your soul was sideways, you were just completely screwed. There was no recovery from a sideways soul. I don't believe that. I believe that we can heal.

Sanjay: Yeah. I believe, Ryan – and I've seen it multiple times, happening around me – that it's like water. The journey of every soul is to move towards that universal self. Now, it may go sideways, but eventually it will come around.

Ryan: Do you think it always comes around?

Sanjay: It comes around. Now, here... I don't know. I'm sure you have read books on past life regression, and things like that, right?

Ryan: Yeah, I have.

Sanjay: I think some of those guys have done a lot of research on that. Now, of course, this is not as solid a science as, let's say, some of the other things are. But, if you follow that school of thought, I think you will know that things do come around. They may not be in this life. Maybe in the next life.

Ryan: Did you grow up in the US?

Sanjay: The last 30 years, I've been here.

Ryan: Do you consider yourself to have the perspective of a Westerner, or a Western American? Or do you feel like you have multiple cultural experiences?

Sanjay: I consider myself to be a guy with a Western mind and an Eastern heart.

Ryan: So, as a guy with an Eastern heart, where are the places that you see in Western society where we're failing – that we can learn; that we can grow; that we're undeveloped?

Sanjay: I think the feeling of compassion; compassion towards each other. Especially more so in today's time, in the last few years, how hatred has been the overpowering thing around us. That has really been quite disturbing to me as a person with an Eastern heart. Despite being in disagreement with another fellow human being, how can we hate others?

Ryan: Well, some things are hateable.

Sanjay: Nothing is hateable, Ryan. Hate is, again, a manifestation of our own inner condition.

Ryan: So, I struggle with that.

Sanjay: It may not be to your liking. If you are still hating someone, it means more character development, more wisdom, is needed. Nothing is so bad that you have to hate.

Ryan: So, murder, rape, pillage...

Sanjay: If you are a murderer, then I don't think we need to be talking, right?

Ryan: Yeah. No.

Sanjay: Hatred comes near murder. Hatred leads to murder. I may not like you. I may not agree with you. I may not... I mean, you may be this, I may be that. I may not agree with your political point of view, your social point of view, your place of... I mean, where you go to eat, how you treat others. I may not agree with you – but that's your way. That's your level of consciousness. We are all like individual planets revolving around our own axis.

Ryan: So, you never experience the voice of the universe expressing hate?

Sanjay: Oh, never. Okay. I shouldn't say never. Not in the last ten years, at least. Why I say that is because that's an evolutionary journey. I mean, was I always like that? I was not always like that. I have changed over time. There was a time, yes. My first startup – I mentioned to you that I was like a tyrant boss myself; an autocratic tyrant boss. From that to now, it has been a beautiful journey.

Ryan: I guess what I'm getting at is, you don't think that there's anything happening in the universe that the universe hates?

Sanjay: No. The universe cannot hate. Hate is manmade.

Ryan: Well, I mean, I could agree that hate is manmade if we're talking about how the choices of man are what create the hate. But do you think there are any choices being made that the universe grieves? That the universe despises?

Sanjay: One of the teachings of my master, my teacher in meditation, is... he says – now, here, we will use the term ‘God’ and ‘universe’ as a synonym. Let me use the word ‘universe.’ He says the universe has no mind. So there is no duality in the universe. There is no good or bad. In the universe, everything ‘is.’

Now, how we interpret what we feel from the universe – what we hear from the universe – is, as we discussed earlier, based on our level of consciousness. So, we have the duality. As long as we have the duality, we will have all these. We will have good, bad; love, hatred. Right? We have all those. The universe by itself ‘is’; it has no mind. There is no duality in the universe – or else, why would the universe have that? Why would the universe create human beings who have that?

Ryan: Why would the universe create beings that have something that the universe does not?

Sanjay: Yes. The universe has not created; we have created. The universe has given us the mind to be able to choose. So we choose hatred. How many people are able to talk like me and you, and talk about the things the universe has taught us, or not taught us, and all that – right?

Ryan: Unfortunately, yeah – it's very few.

Sanjay: You may have heard ‘ignorance is bliss.’ Another way of achieving bliss: awareness is bliss. And so is ignorance.

Ryan: Well, I can't imagine finding bliss in ignorance.

Sanjay: Because you have seen the path of awareness.

Ryan: That's right. The path of awareness is well described. Well, Sanjay, we could keep talking about this stuff for a long time. I would love to have an entire conversation with you about the ‘being’ of the universe, because when you express the idea that the ‘being’ of the universe just is, I have some ideas on that that might be contrary. But I would love to discuss that at greater length another time. We're out of time. If people on this podcast want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do it? Do you have social media?

Sanjay: I have social media. Sanjay Sehgal; that's my name. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram; on LinkedIn; on Twitter. sanjay@thoughtfulness.org is my email address – or sanjay@MSysTechnologies.com is my email address. You can contact me via any of these means. And, as I mentioned earlier, I teach meditation free of charge to anyone who is interested. Also, I mentor, or I advise many startups, as well through various organizations or myself directly. People can feel free to contact me.

Ryan: Sanjay, the soulful work you're doing is a gift to every one of us. I appreciate it.

Sanjay: Thank you, Ryan. It was a wonderful conversation. Very rarely I find a person who is as aware about these things as we all have been. And I think it's been a delight.

Ryan: It has been delightful. Have a good one, Sanjay. Thank you. I'm Ryan Millsap. Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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