Terrence Smith and Ryan Millsap - A Reckoning for 2021 - PART 1

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. We here at the podcast are just as happy as you are that 2020 is in the rearview mirror. The studio was a ghost town for six months, and I'm happy to say we're filming multiple projects now. Along the way, we had to re-engineer our entire HVAC system to provide for the safety of our movie crews. Yeah, I'm looking forward to 2021 bringing us all a little more prosperity. We begin our second year of this podcast, and I'm as excited today as I was in the beginning. Thank you for listening in, and know that we definitely appreciate you being here with us.

If you've listened to this podcast much, by now you know how much I enjoy a kick-ass philosophical discussion. We've got a great one today — Terrence Smith. Terrence Smith is a cultural broker and a pastor. He's the director of equity, diversity, and inclusion at the Buckhead Church. With a Master of Divinity from Emory University, he's smart; spiritual; philosophical. There are so many directions this conversation can go. Yes, I'm going to enjoy this. Please welcome to the podcast Mr. Terrence Smith.

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Ryan: Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Today we have Terrence Smith with us, who is the director of diversity, equity and inclusion at the Buckhead Church in Atlanta. Terrence, welcome.

Terrence: Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me.

Ryan: How long has Buckhead Church had a director of diversity, equity and inclusion?

Terrence: Not that long, brother. It's probably been only since September; October? But prior to that, I kind of served as a consultant role — where I had, really, dual roles. That tends to happen because of my own passions, my own desires; but also, my education kind of lands me into that place where I'm able to speak into things, as well as my own experience that helps us move a little bit more forward than otherwise we'd be able to do. The position itself, though? It's very, very new — in terms of September, October 2020.

Ryan: What are some of these things? I mean, I think a lot of people have questions about these words we hear a lot right now. Diversity, equity, inclusion. What do those mean? Tell me. First, let's start with diversity. That might be the easiest one. And then tell me about equity. And then tell me about inclusion.

Terrence: When I think ‘diversity,’ I think, quite simply, just ‘different things.’ Different parts of your life. Depending on where you're from — that's also an element of diversity, because it differentiates you from, say, someone else. I also believe that not only our backgrounds, but our upbringings, our race, the ethnicity that comes with that, the experiences as it relates to your age, your gender, your sexual preference or sexual orientation — all those things are part of diversity.

I think that the beauty of diversity is that you get the opportunity to really see the beauty, I believe, of creation, whenever you understand that. And I think there's also an opportunity that exists when you're working in organizations in particular, or even just in life. The more diverse of a circle that you have, I think, the more beauty your life has. And I think, also, you get a chance to remove some of the blind spots that you otherwise wouldn't necessarily be able to.

I think, in terms of equity... when I think about equity, I think about seats at the table. Right? I think about an opportunity. I'll give you an example in my own personal life. When you talk about leadership, or certain organizations, or particular organizations, there are people there that have been at the table forever. They make the decisions for everybody that's involved. And whether it's a corporate business — you're going to have customers; you're going to have employees. You have all these different people that are expected to be a part of, and on board with, the mission and the vision of whatever that company or that business is.

But, in order... and I think this is where equity comes in, that could benefit not only just the individuals involved, but also the corporation or the business. Again, I think that equity allows you to have those blind spots filled. I remember a few years ago... I can't remember what company it was, but this is probably the case for most companies now, at some point. They get in a lot of hot water. because they had an ad campaign that went awry, or something that was completely insensitive, or they tweeted something that was ridiculous — and as a result, they got quote-unquote “canceled,” because “cancel culture” is a real thing right now, right?

The truth is, having equity as an employee — as a staff member — and value and equity as an organization? That's a win-win, because if there were people at the table that were, say, African-American; or, say, Latino or Latinx, that were a part of that discussion at the table? A: the company would have saved the embarrassment. Would have saved the issues that came along with it. Would have not been canceled, more than likely. But also, the employee or the staff member gets a chance to speak into what's happening on a daily basis — helping people understand the value that they bring to the table. So, it also shapes their own personal experiences.

Inclusion. I think inclusion is a lot like the thing. Equity is a little bit different than inclusion, because it's going to require somebody helping someone else. For example, when I think about equity, I think about the basketball game analogy. You may have heard this before — where there's a basketball game being played. One team starts out with five players. Every basket counts for five points, right? So, the other team — they have five players, but every basket counts as one point. So, they're playing a basketball game. And clearly, the team that has the points worth five is whooping up on the team that has the points worth one.

Ryan: Depends on who's on each team.

Terrence: Right? It does. If you’ve got LeBron, or somebody, it's a little bit different. But for the most part, that is a big difference. They score the same amount of baskets. Let's say they all scored 20 baskets. So, the team that has the points valued at one point will have 20. The team that has the points valued at five has 100.

Well, at halftime, you decide to make the playing field equal. Now, everybody's points equal five. But remember — one team has 20 at halftime. One team has 100 at halftime. So, in order for the team that has the points valued at one point to catch up, or to win, either the team that had five is going to have to significantly stop doing what they're doing, or they're going to have to bust their tail — the team that had the points worth one — to catch up.

And, so equality is at halftime. You say “everybody's equal. We're good.” But this is how equity is. “All right. Let me give you ten points to catch up with what was happening at the first half.” So, to me, that's the difference between equity and equality.

Ryan: But is that assuming that race is somehow equating to ‘teams?’

Terrence: No; I think it's just an example. I think it really is just a helpful example in terms of something that we all experience — whether it's sports, or whether it's understanding what's fair, and what's not. I think that goes back to our childhood as well. Whenever you're a kid, you have this sense of, “oh, that's right, that's wrong. That's fair. That's not fair.” And so, I don't think it's ‘teams.’ I think it's just a great analogy to think about it as it relates to equity and inequality.

Ryan: So, it's more of a thought experiment than a practical attempt to actually do that. Like, practically — that's the piece that I'm trying to understand. So then, how would you decide who was what team? Even race aside — is it the upper middle class? And then, inside the upper middle class, are there all these layers and teams inside of there? And it gets so complicated. How does the analogy, or the thought experiment, have a practical application?

Terrence: I think the practical application in it is to just understand, for starters, that this is the world we live in. I think that's the bottom line for it, for me. Truthfully, some people got advantages to begin with. Even for me, when I think about the idea of privilege. Privilege is a big issue, and a big challenge for a lot of people to accept — particularly when you say things like ‘white privilege.’ That is like, “No, my God, set the whole barn on fire.” That is the thing. But in reality, all of us...

Ryan: Trust me, I have a lot of these arguments with my 16-year-old daughter.

Terrence: Yeah. That’s the truth. When you put ‘white’ in front of the privilege, it becomes this thing where, again, you set the whole barn on fire. “Oh, I worked for everything I have.” No one is saying that you didn't work for everything you have. That is good. However, there are certain advantages that we all have in life. For example, I'm six foot one. One of the benefits of that is, if I see a little old lady in a grocery store, she can't reach the top shelf, I'm going to help grab the thing for her. That's a privilege, right? We all kind of do those things. We have that in us, I believe, innately.

Ryan: Does she get the stuff from the bottom shelf for you?

Terrence: It would be helpful, but I can get it for myself. But we all have it, right? We're all born with some sort of advantage, or some sort of privilege. Even being born in America.

Ryan: Huge advantage.

Terrence: Yeah. Even with everything that's going on — still, to be in America is an incredible advantage, and it's an incredible blessing.

Ryan: Let's try to keep it that way.

Terrence: Hey, bro. Listen, I'm with that. I'm with it, man. Even with all the crazy stuff going on.

Ryan: Well, I still tell people all the time. I say, “this is the worst country on the entire planet. Except for all the others.”

Terrence: You’re on to a point. You’re on to something, man. I'm telling you. And that makes me think about, like... even being in all of this stuff, right? We're in a crazy time. What we saw last week was insane. I don't think that most people thought that that would be something that would happen.

Ryan: It was insane on every level.

Terrence: Yeah. It really is. And to be honest, I felt like I saw this coming six years ago.

Ryan: Saw what coming? A culture war of this magnitude.

Terrence: Yeah. Because, when you think about it, what we began seeing during the campaigns was a lot of what eventually manifested itself in terms of the fighting, and... just the division. I think, when you add that to the feelings of people feeling like they're losing something, I think that is part of the recipe to see what we saw this past week on the sixth.

Ryan: Well, I think, in decades past, there was a deeper sense of commonality about what it means to be an American. That feels like it's lacking right now. Like, it'd be really hard to get disparate groups together right now and say, “make a list that you can agree on about what it means to be an American.”

And that's really frightening for me, because I look at America as the most amazing experiment in social psychology and freedom and diversity and economic development that the history of mankind has ever seen. It feels like our forefathers gave us an incredible roadmap, for an ease of list-making, as to what it means to be an American. And that feels like it's lost right now.

Terrence: I would love to hear more about... when you say this ‘common thing,’ what do you mean by that?

Ryan: From our forefathers?

Terrence: Common values.

Ryan: I think that the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution give us a really clean roadmap from a ‘what does it mean to be an American’ standpoint, where we say things like, “Well, Americans provide for the common defense.” So Americans, fundamentally, as Americans, believe in a military. And a strong military. Why? To protect freedom.

Why do we want domestic tranquility? Why are we going to have police forces, let's say? Only to protect freedom. So, if they're not doing that job, there needs to be reform. If the military isn't protecting us — and by protecting, I don't mean keeping us alive. I mean keeping the American experiment alive, of individual human freedom. So, if the military isn't doing that job, the military needs to be reformed. If the police force isn't providing for domestic tranquility, it needs to be reformed. And then, at the end of the day, ultimately, the fundamental aspect of being an American is the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

Terrence: Yeah. Hearing your perspective on that, I think, is helpful — because, as a black person in America, it's a little bit different. Those things, absolutely, I agree with 100%. Even the experiences themselves. And when I think about America — again, I think that it’s the greatest place on earth, man. I think it’s the greatest country.

And I think that it’s one of the things that, also... it's like this. You talked about your 16-year-old daughter. You have hopes for your 16-year-old daughter, right? You want her to be the best ever. You want her to be an incredible human. You want her to give back to society. And, at the same time, because you have those expectations, there are moments when you have to call her out. There are moments where you’ve got to be like, “That's not what's up.”

Ryan: “You’re better than that.”

Terrence: Yeah, 100%. And I think, for a lot of people, the experience of being black in America has been like that — where it's like, “Hey, listen. We all have the same ideals in terms of what our hopes are; what our dreams are. But at the same time, we're better than this. Like, we can't... this is not okay. This is something that we have to...”

Ryan: Who's not... Who needs to improve? Who's being called out in that sense?

Terrence: Well, I think, in this particular sentence, I'm just thinking about overall — the ideals, and the things that we find our value in, or our treasures in. Whether it's the government; whether it’s the police forces; whatever the case may be. I think you can run your hands through a lot of the different entities and find that that conversation, or that part of that sentence, was applicable. You know what I'm saying?

I think, in this case, coming off of 2020, we saw things like Ahmaud Arbery. We saw things like George Floyd. We saw Breonna Taylor, and all the things that happened. And I think the very recent showing of what happened at the Capitol is also telling to who we are in America as well. The response to that, versus some of the responses we saw from the nonviolent situations, and the protests that happened in the past summer. And I think that's even one of the more challenging and heartbreaking things about what happened on January 6th. For me, as a black man in America, it was like...

I've always known that there's a difference — meaning, there's a difference in America, in terms of ‘your America’ as you, and ‘my America’ as me, in terms of the history behind it. There's a layered history that comes with it. When I walk into a room... A: I can't hide my skin color, you know what I'm saying? I don't have the privilege of being able to do that, which is in itself a challenge and a change sometimes. But also, my experiences: the pain, and the overall history that accompanies me wherever I go.

And I think that looking at what happened on January 6th was like... we've always known that there was a difference. But this right here really showed us that there was a huge difference. Just seeing the responses, man. Seeing the responses to how everything was. Looking back over the summer, when you talk about protesters who were protesting against police brutality, they had the National Guard at ready. I mean, ready. Versus what we saw on January 6th. It was like, “Hey, y'all, come on in.”

Ryan: That's actually the part of the whole thing that I don't understand at all. One: how people that were unarmed broke into the Capitol. And two: how, of the people that broke into the Capitol, more weren't shot dead.

Terrence: Yes. I think that is the thing that is mind blowing for me, Ryan. Again, this is what I think. Had that been black people, I think we're talking about one of the largest massacres on US soil — like, straight up. Because, as a whole, I feel like we've been killed or shot for less.

When you talk about police brutality, you talk about George Floyd; you talk about Philando Castile; you talk about Tamir Rice, who was a 12-year-old and had a toy pistol, and was shot within a matter of 10 to 15 seconds. But, at the same time, people that were on their way — at least, what it looks like, allegedly — to kidnap our representatives and our people that have been elected to represent us? It's just mind blowing.

Ryan: Now, I will tell you. I watched a lot of that video, and I've watched videos that were put out by Americans. I’ve watched videos put out by Europeans. I feel like I’ve seen the extreme version of what narrative people are trying to tell about what happened to the Capitol; I've feel like I've seen the opposite, which is people trying to minimize it. And I don't really feel like I have a true understanding of what actually was going to happen. It feels intuitively to me like yahoos. It feels like guys in buffalo hats, and dudes waving at cameras taking away Nancy Pelosi's lectern, and guys smoking cigars, or whatever they were doing, in Nancy's office with their feet on the desk.

It doesn't feel at all... like when people use the word ‘insurrection?’ It doesn't resonate with me that there was an insurrection, because I know a lot of ex-military guys who are very capable with weapons. And if guys like this wanted to have an insurrection? It would look very, very different than what took place. Now, at the same time, I think what they did was insane.

Terrence: 100%.

Ryan: Going back to what you were talking about when you listed out a lot of these — I've watched a lot of videos. George Floyd is impossible to watch and not want to weep. But there are other videos that I've watched of guys that were shot, that then there's been outrage. I watch the video, and I think, “Okay, I'm going to insert in this video a white man instead of a black guy; a white guy doing the same thing.” I watch this video, and I go, “That guy's an idiot.”

That's what I would say if I didn't have any... if there wasn't any racial aspect of the video. I watch this, and go, “Listen; maybe the police shouldn't have killed him, but that guy was an idiot. I mean, he tased the police. He ran from the police. He pointed stuff at the police. He went and reached in his car for stuff. That's insane.” If I was doing that, and I got shot, I'd be thinking to myself, “That was dumb.” If I was watching a white guy do that, I would watch that and go, “That was insane. What are you thinking? How do you expect not to get shot?”

So, there's this whole spectrum where I say, “how much of that is racial? How much of that is wrong place, wrong time?” How much of that is bad decision making on the part of an individual — white, black, Asian, Latino — whoever it is, it’s just bad decision making. Then I don't want to see the police punished for being good police officers who follow their training.

Terrence: Of course. Yeah.

Ryan: And then act like they did something that was racial, when it had nothing to do with race. And so, that's the place where, in this conversation, I get kind of confused. Because I feel like I'm a really moderate, center-of-the-road American who looks at stuff going on in the Democratic Party, and I shake my head. I look at stuff going on in the Republican Party, and I shake my head, and I say, “Is there any place for just a guy who, in the least white way possible, doesn't see race?”

I want to say, “I just want to be a human being.” And I want to treat other human beings as human beings. I want us all to have the same rights. I want us all to have the same freedoms. I want us all to be able to make whatever life we want. I'm absolutely against people acting like this is a Christian country.

Terrence: Yeah. Me too.

Ryan: I think Christianity is a beautiful religion.

Terrence: Yeah, for sure.

Ryan: But I don't believe America is Christian. America is a place where you can have it. You can worship God however you want, and I want to protect that. I want to protect that for my Muslim friends. I want to protect that for my Jewish friends. I want to protect that for my Hindu friends. And I want to protect that for my Christian friends of all denominations.

So, where is that place that we can come together and say, “Everything's not going to be fair. Everything's not going to be the same. But we're going to create a world of openness, and freedom, that protects everybody's ability to be whatever freak or whatever conservative that they want — inside of this bubble of freedom.

Terrence: Man, I think that's utopian. And I think you are a great human being; a great optimist. That is an ideal world.

Ryan: I'm for sure a great optimist.

Terrence: Right, bro.

Ryan: I build movie studios for a living.

Terrence: Yeah, you're definitely an optimist, man. The truth is, though — you talk about people getting shot, or whatever the case may be. The crazy part about that is, I think there is a difference — because you talk about biases, right? And we all have those biases. There's something about this person, or this type of person, that you feel more comfortable with, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that's what we've seen.

Man, listen. I am all for people doing right, and not putting themselves in situations where they have to be confronted by cops, so to speak. But listen — based on my own experience? Dude, I'm 37 years old. I’ve probably been pulled over 16 to 20 times in my lifetime

Ryan: That’s it?

Terrence: Good for you, bro.

Ryan: Clearly one of us drives more aggressively than the other.

Terrence: I am a safe driver, bro. Like, I am one of the safest drivers ever. My wife will tell you that, man. But the experiences that I've had, brother, have been like nothing that many of my friends who are white would ever believe. And it's all because... it's almost as if, when you talk about two different ideologies, or two different ways of life. Right?

I think we all bring ourselves to conversations. We all bring our full selves to relationships. And I think that also is the thing that makes it difficult for us to understand and love each other sometimes. Because I don't see it your way; you don't see it my way. And all of a sudden, there's this friction — particularly in the age of, like, “No. I'll just find other people that believe what I believe and say what I say and feel the way I feel.”

And so, thinking about those situations; thinking about a situation where, at 16, there was a situation where I had a gun. I was drug out of a car, and a gun put in my head, as a result of being pulled over in a traffic stop. I was in this raggedy Eagle Summit. They don't even make these cars anymore. And a car that wouldn't go over 65 without shaking. Anyway, the point being there is two different realities.

Ryan: What was the reason that they... because I'll tell you a story that happened to me that was similar.

Terrence: Yeah. So, they said that I was going 80 in a 55.

Ryan: But your car didn't go over 65.

Terrence: It couldn't. It was raggedy. It wouldn't.

Ryan: Were you in a part of town where you felt racially profiled?

Terrence: No; not necessarily. I think it was just the situation of the day, man. There was so much going on. And this is a situation that I didn't even tell my parents until I became an adult — because part of it, I felt like, was my fault. And I was embarrassed by it. But it wasn't my fault at the time.

The thing about that situation, though — and I'm grateful for it — is that it hasn't made me bitter. Like, that allowed me to see a there is a reality. The things that I suspected, and the things that my family members and friends... and even the ‘talk’ that parents have to have, parents have called to have with their students, or their kids sometimes. These are all real things. They exist. And there are times when you're going to find yourself in situations where you just know you’d better shut up so that you can make it home, right? That’s the goal. I’ve got to make it home, because that is the reality of it. You may not, being in a situation like that.

So, yeah, man — that happened when I was 16. It didn't necessarily make me bitter, but it did make me aware that there is a possibility that something like that could happen.

Ryan: Yeah. When I was... I was probably in my late 20s. Yeah, that's about right. I was late 20s, and I went to play basketball in a rough part of town in Long Beach, California.

Terrence: Shoutout to Snoop Dogg.

Ryan: Yeah. Well, no — that's the really rough part of Long Beach. This was just the moderately rough part of Long Beach. Trust me. Long Beach is, like, 15 miles long, and there are layers and layers of rough when it comes to Long Beach. And so, this was actually in the moderately difficult part of Long Beach. I was dressed to play basketball. And I was driving, I think, an old BMW.

Terrence: Do you still hoop, by the way?

Ryan: Well, I'd have to probably get myself in better cardio shape. But I’d love to play basketball. I'm driving this car, and suddenly I've got lights on behind me. I’d finished playing basketball. I'm all sweaty. I'm like, “What's going on?” And I don't really think anything of it because... in that way, I have a very white privilege. So I don't expect to be harassed by the police.

The guy walks up, and I realize he's got his gun drawn on me from the side of the car, and he's yelling, “Put your window down. Hands on the steering wheel.” I'm like, “What the heck is going on?” He comes over, basically drags me out of the car, throws me up against the car, pats me down, and then tells me to get over on the curb and sit on my knees on the curb with my hands behind my head.

The other officer basically has her gun drawn on me. And I'm kind of freaking out. I'm like, “What is going on?” And all of this was over expired tags. I didn't realize it, but my tags had expired. And in that neighborhood, the cops were just on high alert, so it didn't matter; race, creed, sex. If you had expired tags, they were going to treat you like criminal.

Now, I thought that was extreme, no matter what; you know, no matter who it was. And it gave me a huge amount of empathy for my black friends that had told me these stories about how many times they'd been been treated by the police with extreme caution. And that's how I got. They were treating me with extreme caution. And finally, when they got my license; they heard my story. I'm sweating. I'm in basketball clothes. And they finally were like, “Go on your way. Get your tags.” They gave me a ticket to get my tags fixed, and everything.

It was overwhelming — emotionally overwhelming — to go through that. And I can't imagine what it would feel like if I felt like that was going to happen to me all the time — because frankly, I didn't leave going, “Man, I’d better be really careful about the police.” I said, “I’d better be very careful to not have expired tags in bad neighborhoods.” Right? Because police officers in neighborhoods that have more problems are on heightened alert. And so, then, they have a different protocol than if I get pulled over by some state trooper in a rural county, and he says, “Hey, fella. Seems like you got a little bit of a lead foot there.” And I’d say, “Oh, man. I'm sorry. What was the speed limit?” He goes, “It was 45.” I said, “How fast was I going?” He said, “You're doing close to 70.” And like, “Man, I better... I wasn't even paying attention.” It was like Mayberry and Andy Griffith. You know?

Terrence: Barney Fife.

Ryan: Barney Fife. Right. And so, I can only imagine the level of anxiety that's created by having a lot of experience with police officers that are overzealous, or worse. It’s a less than desirable position to be in, for sure — socially and psychologically.

Terrence: For sure, man. It takes its toll. It takes its toll on you. And again, I'm for people doing the right thing. I'm for police doing the right thing. But I remember a situation when I was a graduate student at Emory. My wife and I were expecting our very first child. And she was pregnant. We were going to a Hawks game. And I remember the situation was... we were driving. Once we saw that it was going to be a bunch of traffic on 285 — we lived in Smyrna — to get to Phillips at the time, we're like, “Oh, we'll just take the streets,” because we'll get there. It'll be a lot faster than if we get onto 85.

And, as we got on one of the side streets from our apartment, my wife had the visor down, and she had the mirror up and the light on. And I was like, “Hey, no, don't do that. That's not...”

Ryan: You knew that was something that would get you pulled over.

Terrence: 100%. So I'm like, “Hey, that'll get us pulled over. I need you to put that down.” And she was like, “Really?” And I was like, “Yes, really.”

Ryan: Is your wife white, or...

Terrence: No, she’s black. She's a black woman. But she grew up with a sister who was a cop. Yeah. Plot twist. Right? So, she’d had never had that experience before, because they were always in her favor. So, she said, “Okay,” right. She puts it up. I swear to you, Ryan — in less than 30 seconds, there was a cop behind us, and we were just like, “Oh, God, here we go.”

We get pulled over, and the cop comes to the car; has his hand on his gun. He just says, “Get out of the car.” And so, my wife is like, “No, you're not getting out.” And I'm like, “Hey, I need you to...”

Ryan: Chill out. Turn that knob down a little.

Terrence: Yeah. Turn that down a little bit. Like, “I like your spice. Not right now, though, sweetheart. Not right now.”

Ryan: “Save that for later.”

Terrence: Yeah. That's right. So I'm like, “Chill out. No, don't do that.” And I'm like, “Officer, what did I do?” He was like, “Well, just get out of the car, and I'll tell you.” And I'm like, “Oh, nah. I don't want to do that.” And I remember her being like, “No.” And I'm like, “Yo, you need to chill out. We need to make it home.” And so, finally, I get out of the car.

Ryan: Is that a phrase in the black community? “You need to make it home?”

Terrence: Yes. For a lot of people, it is, I won't say for the entire community, but in situations like that, I know there are a lot of parents that say, “Hey.”

Ryan: That would be a known thing. Like, you said that phrase, and I thought, “I've never heard that phrase.”

Terrence: Yeah, there's a lot of people, when you think about what we're looking to do — and there's a talk that happens quite often in our community, where it's like, “Hey, you do whatever you gotta do.” You know what I'm saying? You tell them, and announce everything you’ve got to do. Make sure your hands are on the steering wheel. Whenever you make a movement, you shout it out. Like, “Hey. I'm going to grab my wallet. My wallet has my ID in it.” There's no quick movements; no sudden movements. You do whatever you can to be quiet. You be respectful as possible.

Ryan: And you make it home.

Terrence: You make it home. That is the goal. And I think, that night, whenever we got pulled over, that's what I was thinking. I was like, “Hey, we’ve just got to make it home.” We get pulled over. I got a question about why we're going that way to the Hawks game, and in my head, I'm like, “Because I pay taxes, and these are my roads.” You know what I'm saying? But I can't say that. Here I am. I'm a graduate student studying divinity at Emory University — one of the world’s, I believe; at least the Southeast’s — one of the finest universities.

Ryan: And all you could think about was Old Testament rage.

Terrence: I thought about New Testament rage. I want to flip tables like Jesus. But I'm sitting there thinking, man. And I'm like, “All right, well, listen. This is humiliating. But we saw that traffic was going to be bad this way. Why are you pulling me over, officer?” “Well, let me get your license and registration.” “Okay? Can you please tell me why you're pulling me over?” “Well, let me get your license and registration.”

I'm like, “Okay. All right. Well, here, here it is.” They go back; they ran my license and registration, and I guess it came up with nothing. And they're like, “Well, you might have a taillight out.” And I'm like, “Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. Can we go?” “Well, hold on just a second.”

And so, I'm outside the car, and the tension is boiling. And my wife is pregnant. She's probably 7 or 8 months pregnant at this point. And so, my concern isn't necessarily about me. It's to her, and making sure that she's all right, because there's an officer on her side, too. And so, anyway, they let us go without any ticket. Nothing. She is irate, and so mad. “Oh my God, I can't believe that they did this.” And I'm like, “That's what they did. It happens sometimes. And she's like, “Why aren't you mad? Why aren’t you upset?” And I was like, “Because unfortunately, this isn't the first time this has ever happened to me.” She's like, “I can't believe it. I just can't believe it.”

And, in a lot of ways, that's how it is for a lot of my friends who are white. When I'm sharing experiences, it's hard — whenever you have been brought up to see these people as your ‘knights in shining armor;’ your heroes — to hear that there's instances, or situations, where things have gone all the way left. And I think that the part about it is that, oftentimes, when we have given labels to people, we have stripped away their humanity in a sense. And I think we still have to understand that these people are human — and whatever biases, and whatever issues, and whatever challenges that they had prior to putting on this uniform, they more than likely still have. Unless they've done a significant amount of work to work on getting that out, and working through that, or even are constantly in the process of working through that. It probably still exists — on top of, I think, just the origins of the way that it all came about.

And again, this isn't a diss. This isn't anti-police. This is just history. When you talk about many of the modern-day versions of the police departments, they all come from slave patrols. I think, in particular, Charleston, South Carolina. I think it definitely comes from slave patrols. So there are racist origins that exist, because that was the purpose of what it was for.

Ryan: Not all police forces.

Terrence: No. Not all.

Ryan: Only some police forces.

Terrence: Correct. Not all. Definitely some.

Ryan: Because clearly, there were police in the northeast, where there was no slavery — but they still needed police.

Terrence: But they also had rules to make sure that they returned any freed slaves to their slave masters. So it's still even.

Ryan: Let's go back. In Europe; in England, there were police forces, right? So, it's not like police were just slave catchers.

Terrence: You’re right. And I'm not saying that they were 100%. I am saying that it has an undertone here in the United States of America.

Ryan: That was one of the roles that they were forced to play.

Terrence: 100%. It was a huge role.

Ryan: As enforcers of the law — which, at the time, the laws included the legality of slavery, and the illegality of running as a slave. Okay. I don't necessarily fault the police force for that, in the sense that the police force are not the legislators. The police force are not the judges. The police force are just an executive function.

Terrence: Correct. You are well-studied, and a philosopher, and all of this. You know that even with that, there's still things to your subconscious that can kick in.

Ryan: 100%.

Terrence: So, if you're accustomed to arresting — or seeing a certain segment of the population being consistently arrested, or whatever — there's something in your psyche that immediately, automatically equates that to that particular situation.

Ryan: Well, every... and when I say ‘police officer,’ I'm going to include FBI agents. Enforcement personnel, of some sort or another. They're all trained in profiling. And some of that is racial profiling. Some of that is socioeconomic profiling. Some of that would be ‘tattoo profiling,’ right? If they see tattoos on a neck...

Terrence: It's game film

Ryan: It's game film. So, they say, “All right. Tattoo on a neck. Doesn't necessarily mean that he is more violent. But I might... I'm just going to have heightened awareness.” And so, the difficulty is that, if... the more white-collar crime there is, the more that you profile a guy who shows up in a suit. And you treat him with skepticism, like he's there to take your wallet. And that might be true.

Terrence: Yeah.

Ryan: I know a lot of really sharply-dressed people who are completely unethical. Now, my life experience has taught me this. Just like my life experiences taught me that, if someone wants to pray before lunch, that might be beautiful, and that might be a warning sign.

Terrence: And what kind of warning sign is it, brother?

Ryan: Well, it might be a warning sign that I need to watch out, because they're trying to lull me into a belief that they have ethics.

Terrence: Yeah. Right.

Ryan: And so, that sucks, because you would like to think that if somebody wanted to pray, that was just out of like a genuine spirituality and thankfulness to God.

Terrence: And gratitude.

Ryan: And a desire to share their gratitude with you, and with the world. But it might be part of a ruse.

Terrence: Yeah. I mean, that's valid. That makes me... Listen, if we ever go to lunch, I'm gonna pray silently. I'm not going to say a word. I might not even close my eyes, bro.

Ryan: I'm not trying to disparage praying at lunch. I'm saying that there are genuine acts that can become profile signs of danger.

Terrence: For sure. That's 100% accurate, bro. And I think that's right. I think that that, plus the history, also makes for a lot of the situations that we find ourselves in. And, I mean, you can talk about... honestly we can go back to the policies. We can go back to how cocaine made its way into America. There's so many different ways.

Ryan: If it wasn't for cocaine, we wouldn't have Sigmund Freud — at least all the written-down versions of his psychology.

Terrence: Yeah, man. There's a lot of different things about that that adds to that profile thing that I think also makes it more complicated. And so, this America man — again, I think this is the greatest place; the greatest country on Earth. And at the same time, whenever you... like, we talked about your daughter, and even for my daughter. Whenever there are things that you want for people, and things that you love, there's an expectation of, “Hey, we're better than this. We’ve got to figure out a way to do better.”

And I think that that is ultimately what we're saying. Whenever you talk about, “Hey, let's allow a person to get their day in court. Like, let's not rush judgment. Let's not shoot anybody.” If they're guilty, then we have a system, a legal system, where you are innocent until proven guilty, right? Let's allow that person to have their day in court, as opposed to a quick-fire trigger.

To me, that’s all. That's the only difference, right? If you're wrong, you're wrong. If you’re in a situation that you had no business being in, that's what it is. But at least have the opportunity to face your day in court, and not necessarily have your last moments of life happen the way that they do.

Ryan: I don't disagree with that at all.

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Thanks for listening to the Blackhall Studios Podcast with Ryan Millsap. We want to hear from you! Find us on SoundCloud, iTunes or Spotify, and follow us on Instagram at @Ryan.Millsap.