Terrence Smith and Ryan Millsap - A Reckoning for 2021 - PART 2

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: So, I've got some kind of sociology questions for you, around this. So, obviously, you're at a church that is very white.

Terrence: Yes.

Ryan: Right. I mean, Buckhead Church probably has a wonderful diversity if you did an audit of the whole. But on the surface, it appears very lily-white. Did you grow up around white people?

Terrence: That's funny. I can't help but to grow up around white people, man. But my upbringing is very unique, and... well, I say unique. It’s probably not unique at all. But my experience was that I grew up in a majority black neighborhood — like, a majority black neighborhood.

Ryan: In what city?

Terrence: In Wilson, North Carolina, which is a small town. We are known for tobacco and vinegar-based barbecue, my man.

Ryan: I love vinegar-based barbecue.

Terrence: It’s delicious. So good for the soul, too. But I grew up in Wilson, and my neighborhood was a majority-black neighborhood. I had one neighbor to our left — Miss Jean and Mr. Eaton. Miss Jean was a snitch, by the way. She used to tell on me all the time. And we had problems with that.

Ryan: Was she a white lady or a black lady?

Terrence: She was a white lady.

Ryan: And what was her last name?

Terrence: Eaton. Yeah, we'll say that.

Ryan: That sounds pretty white.

Terrence: Yeah, bro. She would tell on me. But I loved her. I love her so much. Anyway, I grew up in this majority-black neighborhood.

Ryan: She thought she was doing you a favor. She was calling you out.

Terrence: She did. And she probably was doing me a favor, because I needed to be called out, brother. I was doing stuff I had no business doing. But I grew up in this neighborhood. Majority black neighborhood. And, when I was in second grade, the county decided to bus my neighborhood to an all-white school about 40 minutes out. I was, like, seven. And my parents, and other parents in the neighborhood, were upset because there was a school that was less than five minutes away from us.

Ryan: It was forced busing?

Terrence: Yep. Forced busing.

Ryan: Wow. Was that common in the South? Forced busing?

Terrence: I don't know how common it is.

Ryan: It wasn’t opt-in. It wasn't like, you’re growing up in a black neighborhood where you felt like the schools weren't getting enough resources, and you had an option to get bused to a white neighborhood that you felt like had better resources.

Terrence: Yeah, it wasn't any of that.

Ryan: It was, “go get on this bus, or you can’t go to school.”

Terrence: Yeah, this is the plan. So, this is what is going to happen.

Ryan: That’s wild.

Terrence: And my parents were very upset and frustrated about it. And I remember them fighting for it. They fought very hard, to no avail. And when I was in second grade, my neighborhood was bused to this all-white school. It was quite the experience, because, for starters, I hadn't necessarily been around that many white people before. Like, my town was kind of 50/50. So I'd been exposed to white people. It wasn't like, “what is this?”

Ryan: Sure. But what was it? Was it socioeconomic segregation as well? Like, we growing up with white people that were from your same socioeconomic strata?

Terrence: So, that — and I would say there was a little bit higher, too. So it was a mix.

Ryan: A little mix.

Terrence: Yeah. But, one of my first experiences was that I had a little boy. I remember we were there drinking at the water fountain. And this kid told me to go find my own water fountain, because this wasn't meant for ‘my people.’

Ryan: And what year was this?

Terrence: This is 1990.

Ryan: What? You have to remember — some of this... I'm from the West Coast.

Terrence: Oh, yeah. That's right.

Ryan: So, the West Coast has all its own segregation that you don't even recognize. Like, I can see it now more, having lived in the South. But when you're growing up on the West Coast, you think you're colorblind. You don't think there's any racial issues.

Terrence: Everybody’s all good. You’ve got beaches out here, baby. Come on.

Ryan: So, it's not true, but I've had to face all of my own underlying assumptions about non-racism by living in the South.

Terrence: Yeah. So, that happened in 1990. And I remember thinking, “I don't know why I feel this anger in me right now, but I'm gonna just punch this kid.” And so I did. I punched him, and we ended up in like the principal's office or whatever. He told what happened, and I told what happened, too.

Ryan: And he told the truth?

Terrence: Yeah. Maybe he didn't think it would get him in trouble.

Ryan: He was seven. If he was saying this out loud, he must have thought it was okay.

Terrence: Yeah. So, he said it. And I told what happened. And things kind of... they were what they were. And so, I grew up.

Ryan: And you guys became best friends, and then went to divinity school together?

Terrence: Not quite, bro. That is a very hopeful wishful-thinking situation, bro. But yeah. That happened almost instantly. And so, that was one of my first experiences with white people. But as time went on, I ended up spending three years at this school. That was what that experience was. And then I came back to the city, where I was, for middle school. Our middle school was a majority-black middle school. And so, that was good, because I got a chance to kind of see what it was. By the time I got to high school, high school for us was about 50/50. And so, I ended up going, after high school, to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is a majority white institution, but with a very strong black community and black population.

And so, my whole life, bro, has been spent in and out of these spaces. And I think that is one of the blessings of it. Looking back on it, it's a blessing. At the time, I didn't really know what it was, but it has allowed me and afforded me to be able to move in and out of these spaces; to have conversations; to be able to translate things — because there are people that can't hear things in one language. But I am able to hear this language over here and translate it in such a way that these people can understand it. And I think that that has been a blessing in all of it. So, I grew up around white people, but also black people, and Latino — because I had some Mexican friends and all that.

Ryan: We said Latinx earlier; is that Latin with some black? I mean, what is ‘Latinx?’

Terrence: That's basically the term used for Latinos, and anybody that considers themselves to be in that space these days.

Ryan: ‘Latinx.’ That's different than Latino? Or it's the same as Latino?

Terrence: It's just the same. It's like, women and men are all included into that space.

Ryan: Ah. Got it. Latin-x. When I heard that term — because I'd heard that term recently, not from you, and I thought it meant Latinos who consider themselves to be black.

Terrence: Huh. How did you get to that one?

Ryan: I don't know. Psychologically, I think I was like “Malcolm X, Latinos, Latin-X. Maybe that's what somebody who's from the Caribbean, who feels like they're... Dominican Republic, where they feel like they're black, but they also feel like they're Latin.”

Terrence: Gotcha.

Ryan: I didn't know. Is there a word for that?

Terrence: Nah.

Ryan: Okay. So, ‘Latinx’ — now, I know means the same as ‘Latino,’ but it's without any male, female...

Terrence: Yeah, yeah. That's the term.

Ryan: My 16-year old daughter, who is at an honors school — public honors school — in Los Angeles, is educating me about all these things all the time.

Terrence: Bro. You’ve got a whole professor in your home, or in your family.

Ryan: I mean, she's very, very smart.

Terrence: Yeah. And, I mean... Come on, philosopher. I'm just saying. It’s not like you pick cherries for a living. No disrespect to cherry pickers, by the way.

Ryan: Genetics — it comes back to haunt you, and in many wonderful ways. But there's times that she's challenging me on things that I think aren't even worth talking about, and she thinks are incredibly important. And she might not be wrong. I just don't get it.

Terrence: Yeah. I think that that's the case. I think that's what we're seeing a lot of. 2020. This Generation Z? They're about that life, man. Because, for them, when you're talking about what's happening in America, you're talking about their friends. You're talking about their belief.

Ryan: That’s right. She goes to school, and it's probably 50% black — maybe higher. And then, the other percentage... it’s probably 10% white. And then the rest is various Latinos of all different nationalities; various Asians of all nationalities. You know, Los Angeles — I think there's 250 languages spoken. And so, she goes to one of those schools where there’s 5,000 people.

Terrence: Yeah, you're talking about their friends.

Ryan: It’s a little village. An international village.

Terrence: And so, when you see these things, you're like, “Oh, snap, my friends are crying. My friends are hurt because of what is going on. So now I'm upset, because my friends are crying and hurting, and they're experiencing and they're witnessing injustices that shouldn't necessarily be the case at all.” I think that is one of the challenges — even moving forward for the next 20 years. Or even the Church.

I feel like, for so long, the Church has been silent on a lot of the things that actually matter when it comes to humanity, and people's unwillingness to speak out on certain things because it creates discomfort. And I’ll say part of the church — the big-C Church — because not everybody is included in that. Some of the the big-C Church has also decided to do other things, and to go about other things. You saw a lot of ‘Jesus 2020’ flags at the Capitol.

Ryan: At the Capitol. The insurrection.

Terrence: Yeah. It was prayer, and all these things were happening, but...

Ryan: Jesus was leading the insurrection.

Terrence: Yeah. I’m like, “No I don't think Jesus would do that.” But that's just my opinion, based on what I've read.

Ryan: Unless the Capitol was the temple.

Terrence: Right. And there was money changes happening. You know what I'm saying?

Ryan: I think it's been trillions that have been exchanged, just this year in the Capitol.

Terrence: Maybe that's what the motivation was for it, brother.

Ryan: I don't think Jesus had a lot to do with it.

Terrence: Jesus had nothing to do with that, bro.

Ryan: There in name only.

Terrence: Yeah. For real, you know. But I think that, as you think about...

Ryan: Jesus is a RINO.

Terrence: Bro.

Ryan: Do you know what a RINO is?

Terrence: No, tell me what a RINO is.

Ryan: See, I love this. I get to explain it to you — things that I hear from my very conservative friends. “RINO” stands for “Republican in name only,” which is a disparaging thing that you would say if you were very, very conservative, and somebody who was a Republican had socially left ideas, they would say, “That guy's a RINO.”

Terrence: That's crazy, man — because even when you look at scriptures, bro...

Ryan: Go ask some people at Buckhead Church. They know what a RINO is.

Terrence: I'm like, “Man, will you look at the scriptures?”

Ryan: Call Jamie Dickens — our mutual friend Jamie Dickens, because he is an amazing, wonderful pastor.

Terrence: I love that dude.

Ryan: He's now up at East Cobb Church. He's the head pastor at East Cobb Church. But you call Jamie, and ask him if in East Cobb Church, anybody ever talks about RINOs.

Terrence: You put me on game. I didn't know what a RINO was, bro. I am now aware. So now it's not code-speak anymore, or whatever. I'm in the space, dude. But, I mean, even the ideas and the thoughts of Jesus, right? Like, what he was about, and his focus was... like, he was able to spend time with the people that nobody else wanted to spend time with. He did the things that were unpopular. And a lot of it wreaked havoc on the system as it was — which is, I believe, ultimately what led to his death. They were like, “This dude is messing it up. He’s messing up the money. He's messing up the way that things are supposed to be here. We’ve gotta get rid of this joker.” And so, I think people forget that.

Ryan: Listen, one of my buddies said one time, “Jesus invites prostitutes to dinner, and he's a hero. I invite prostitutes to dinner, and people think it's awkward.”

Terrence: He's trying to be ‘all things to all people.’ That's what your buddy’s trying to do.

Ryan: He clearly is not Jesus. Totally different motivations. It seems motivation actually plays a role in what's ethically okay.

Terrence: Yes, man. But I think, moving forward — when I think about the church, man — I think, overall, the big-C Church is going to have to do a better job of that. This generation? Bro, they're not about ‘fake.’ They're not about you not speaking out on the things that matter. They’re not about you sitting silently in your silos while all these other things happen. And I think that we're seeing a reckoning.

I think, even as you think about the year 2020, all of our norms have been upended in a lot of ways. And I think that has pushed us to a place where... I don't think we're ever going back to what it was before 2020 — in terms of life, in terms of how we operate, in terms of many of our habits. And I think what this has shown is that... I believe this Generation Z — they're going to dictate in a lot of ways what the next generation of the Church looks like, because they are the ones that are really about what Jesus was about. They are about that life. And I think oftentimes, what has happened here is, we've created, or come up with a westernized, nationalized, politicized version of Christianity that isn't necessarily what Jesus was about.

Ryan: That is... well, only Jesus knows for sure. But to this guy sitting in front of this microphone, that feels like that, for sure, is true.

Terrence: I mean, I think it was Dallas Willard that wrote, “There's no bigger God in America than America.” And I think that he was talking about it in context of the way that everything kind of bends towards worshiping America, somehow, some way. So, even in the space of... Like, nationalism, right? Nationalism can be very, very dangerous, brother. And I think, when you start interweaving nationalism, politics... and you start thumping your Bible, and saying that “God told me to do this,” or “this is what Jesus said to do,” and it ain't true. Anybody can take a scripture out of a Bible and make it ‘do’ whatever it is you wanted to do. That's kind of what people do.

Ryan: Dallas Willard. Can I tell you a quick story about him?

Terrence: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan: So, I was a professor at USC for seven years, in real estate.

Terrence: Nice.

Ryan: When I was there, Dallas was still alive. And he was a philosophy professor. So, Dallas and I became friends.

Terrence: Come on.

Ryan: And Dallas used to come to my real estate class once a semester and give a lecture about the spiritual exercise of the ethics of business.

Terrence: What?

Ryan: Amazing.

Terrence: Come on.

Ryan: Oh, yeah. He's fantastic.

Terrence: Listen, I have studied a lot of Dallas Willard, man. That guy left such an imprint on my life. I remember studying him.

Ryan: He’s an intuitive genius.

Terrence: For real. Like, how does this come from a mind? Like, one person's mind?

Ryan: Well, it doesn't. The part of spirituality that he deeply understood is that you only gain wisdom by tapping into the wisdom of the universe.

Terrence: That's so good.

Ryan: He wasn't trying to just pull it out of his own mind. That's where he can make those big intuitive synaptic leaps.

Terrence: That's so good. What a gift.

Ryan: It's a huge gift. He's an incredible person.

Terrence: I now know someone that knew Dallas Willard. Listen, I might just be winning today, but...

Ryan: Yeah. Well, you're winning for sure. Okay — so, you grow up. You have this multicultural experience. What leads you to Buckhead Church? What were you doing before Buckhead Church? And then, I want to ask you some questions. I mean, it's early on, but help me understand. How did you get to Buckhead Church?

Terrence: Honestly, man, it's crazy. For starters, I never thought that I would be in ministry, or working at a church, ever in my life. I didn't want to do that.

Ryan: Even when you went to divinity school?

Terrence: Even when I went to divinity school. Well, that that happened... honestly, you talk about the way that God moves. There's a there's a tug or a pull, usually, for me — from the Holy Spirit, is what I believe it to be — where I find myself in situations and circumstances where it's like... I would have never picked this for me, but I'm going to trust this, and I'm gonna rock with it. I'm gonna go.

And so, I'll kind of give you a bit of the story of how I got here to begin with, and it'll kind of, hopefully, tie it all together. So, I finished at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, and then I did a program called Teach for America. Teach for America brought me to Atlanta, because of placements and all this kind of stuff. So, I did that for a while; jumped intothe corporate world.

Ryan: How long did you teach?

Terrence: Just a couple of years.

Ryan: What'd you teach?

Terrence: Fourth grade. Yes, sir.

Ryan: My very first job out of college was, I was a teacher.

Terrence: Listen, the ties keep getting closer, bro. They keep going. Like it's one of the most difficult and challenging and rewarding professions ever. Shout-out to all of our teachers, by the way. Y'all have been holding it down throughout this entire pandemic. And so, I did that. And after that... I used to come home frustrated and upset, because I'm like, “My God, man — how do they expect me to be concerned with teaching to a test if my kids can't read?” Like, I remember having those inner battles.

Ryan: I was teaching Shakespeare to Latinos who barely spoke English.

Terrence: Same. You and I, brother. Same. It was essentially like teaching Shakespeare. I couldn’t even speak in Latin. It didn't really matter.

Ryan: Some days I would just read it out loud, just so I could hear it.

Terrence: Listen, man; I'm telling you. Teaching really humbles you. I feel like teaching, and being a parent, humbles you — because you're like, “I thought I had all the answers. I thought I could handle all this stuff, and here I am. I'm allowing a six-year-old to dictate my moods, my emotions, and what I do.”

Ryan: How old are your kids?

Terrence: She is six. I have a daughter. Her name is Journey.

Ryan: That’s a cool name.

Terrence: Thanks, bro. I think she's a cool kid. I hope the name matches the kid.

Ryan: Okay, so back to how you got to Buckhead Church.

Terrence: So, I came to Atlanta. I jumped into the corporate world for a little while after teaching, and eventually, I was laid off at some point because of the recession. That led me on this path of trying to get to know who Jesus was — the man. So, growing up, my grandfather was a pastor. Very early on, I saw the distinction between how people that professed Jesus were — how they acted inside the church, versus outside — when I was, like, seven.

I remember thinking, “I'm not going to do that, ‘cause y'all are wacky.” Like, they would be in church all day and enjoying themselves. And the moment they would come out, Ryan, they would be like me. I was like, “How are you... You just spent all this time professing Jesus, and now you're mean?” And then, they would also be the same people that would try to skip out on the bill for Sunday lunch. And I'm like, “This ain't right.” So, at that moment, I was like, “I'm not dealing with this.”

Ryan: That was the good stuff — how it originally was back then.

Terrence: Yeah. I'm like, “I'm not doing this.” So, anyway — fast forward. During the season, I ended up after being unemployed, and getting up before 1am, and printing out resumes, and pounding the pavement trying to find a job. Part of what I did during that season was try to figure out who Jesus was — th man — because I was infatuated with, like... I'm like, “Hey, if Jesus really was about that life, or if Jesus was how these people paint him to be...” Which, at the time, I remember being like this passive guy that some people are like, “Oh, he just turns the other cheek; Jesus. And he was so meek and mild.” And I remember thinking, “Well, if he was all of this stuff, how is it that a real man like me would follow somebody like that?”

That was the thing that that I was like, “There has to be more to this Jesus guy; there has to be.” So I started studying Jesus the man. And what I learned was, no, he wasn't just his passive ‘turn the other cheek’ guy. No, no, no. If he was that, he would still be alive — in terms of physical body form. So, that led me into this insatiable desire to know more, and to learn more. I realized, I believe, that God was working in me at that point, and creating something in me — a desire. And so, that desire led me to Emory — where it was like, “I don't know if I want to do this. I don't want to be a pastor guy. I'll go wherever you want me to go. But listen, I ain't trying to be no pastor.”

And then it got to a point where I was like, “All right, God, I'm down for whatever. I just don't want you to have me in North or South Dakota. Like, I don't like cold weather, so that's all I'm asking.” So I ended up going. And I remember the very first day. It was like, everybody going around the room. And they were like, “Hey — what is it that you are going to do once you're done with seminary?” And everybody had an answer: “I'm going to be a pastor; I'm going to be a deacon; I'm going to do this.” They got to me, and I was like, “I don't know, man. I'm just here.” I felt like Marshawn Lynch. You know, “I'm just here so I don't get fined.”

Ryan: “I’m just here so I don't have to be driving around, possibly getting pulled over.”

Terrence: That’s it, bro. Gotta stay safe out here in these streets.

Ryan: Just trying to make it home.

Terrence: So I'm like, “All right — well, cool. Whatever; I'm open. So, I get there. And, my first year, I work as an intern at a local organization nonprofit. And I'm like, “Okay, this is cool, but I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. It just doesn’t feel like this is it.”

And so, my second year, we had to work in a church. And at that point, I'd led small groups of people between the ages of 23 to 55 in churches. And I was working with the middle school and high school in churches. And then, I’d also, up until that point, taught elementary school. I taught pre-K the summer before my actual transition to be a teacher in Atlanta. And so, I’d had every age group except college students. So, “Oh. It's loud and clear, God. That's it. I'm gonna go and work with college students.”

And so, I started googling college ministries in Atlanta to do an internship. And the living room at Buckhead Church came up. I was like, “All right, cool. Let me just go check it out and see what it's about.” So, I go, and I get there. I meet this kid; this kid's name is Kyle. And we have a conversation. And Kyle's like, “Man, it's so good to have you here; blah, blah, blah.” And he's like, “Where are you from, dude?” I was like, “Man, I'm from Wilson, North Carolina.” He's like, “Oh, wow. Brad is from Wilson.” And I was like, “I don't know who Brad is, but he's not from Wilson.” And he was like, “No, no, no, seriously, he really is.” I was like, “Okay, whatever you say.”

So, he's like, “All right. Well, at least let me introduce you to him after the service.” So I'm like, “All right, cool, man.” Then I experience the Living Room, which is a service; a worship service. There's a message, and some singing, and all this kind of stuff. And I remember thinking, “Man, this right here is incredible. It's like nothing I've ever experienced in my life.” There were college students all there — like, on one accord, just worshiping and witnessing what was happening in front of them.

And so for me, I was like, “I've never seen this, but I want to be a part of it.” Also, it was the first time I'd ever seen an escalator in a church, too; at Buckhead Church. That caught me off guard. I was like, “This is fire.” So, I'm there.

Ryan: I was the worst car there.

Terrence: I'm like, “This is amazing.” I'm there, man.

Ryan: Did you see the Lamborghinis?

Terrence: Yeah, they do exist. So I'm like, “All right; well, cool.” I experience it. Kyle comes back over, and he's like, “Let me introduce you to Brad.” And I'm like, “All right, cool, let's do that.” He introduces me to Brad — and Brad, surely enough, was from Wilson. And I'm like, “No way; this is crazy.” And so, we start talking about the schools, and whatever. It turns out, Brad is director of college ministry, and the guy that I needed to talk to, but didn't have any way to figuring out who it was. So I'm like, “Look at that. This can't be just coincidence.”

Ryan: Serendipity.

Terrence: You know how it goes. So I'm like, “All right.” I share with him; I say, “Hey, man, listen. I am looking to have an internship. I will pay my way. You don't have to... all I'm asking you is an hour per week, if that. Just to spend time to help me figure out what it is I feel like my call is, and where I'm supposed to be.”

He was like, “All right — well, come back. We'll interview. We'll see how it goes.” So, I interview again.

Ryan: Brad’s a white guy.

Terrence: Yeah, he's a white guy. He's a nice guy.

Ryan: I don't know any black guys named Brad.

Terrence: I know one.

Ryan: You do? Is he from Alpharetta?

Terrence: I think this one is from Charlotte, but he's the only one. Or, two. I know Brad Daugherty, who played basketball at Carolina. That's the other. There’s two.

Ryan: Two. Okay. You're right. It didn’t seem like a very black name.

Terrence: Yeah. I mean, but you guessed it right. You did good.

Ryan: Well, he was also a pastor at Buckhead Church, before there was a pastor of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Terrence: Haha. I’m done. So, I mean, I came back, right? He offered me the position, and he told me, “Hey, man, take advantage of this opportunity,” which I'm forever grateful for — because at the time, bro, I was working four little mini-jobs. I had a brand-new baby; I had a wife. And I think, at that point, I was the oldest intern they'd ever had, which was crazy and humbling at the same time — because I'm a grown man, you know? I'm a grown man, Ryan.

In that space, though, I begin to really be open to hoping that God was going to do something, or show me something in that space. So, while I was there, I sat in on all meetings that I could. I met everybody that I could, and I really had conversations; just picking people's brains. And before I know it, the lead pastor at the time — he was like, “Hey, man, let's go to lunch, and let's have a conversation.”

So we did. And he was like, “Hey — the right situation came along. Would you consider maybe not finishing school right now; maybe kind of slowing it down — but maybe being on staff here?” I remember thinking in my head... my face was like, “Yeah, I'll pray about it. We'll see how it goes.” But in my head, I'm like, “Man, yes!” I'm like, “I've been working four jobs, brother. I need something serious.”

So, I end up getting the situation where I got a job working in the middle school ministry. Dude, it was an amazing. Like, I'd never seen anything done on that scale. Never seen anything that thoughtful as it related to middle school students and the people that love them, because there's some amazing volunteers that are part of that. And it really just energized me. So, I got there, man. I was in the middle school space for about six years total, and just recently moved into this space for the diversity, equity and inclusion.

Ryan: Do you have programs that are trying to create a greater diversity of race at Buckhead Church?

Terrence: I don't think that specifically. I think that, in a lot of ways, Buckhead Church is a beneficiary of some things that happened within the city, in terms of our diversity. Or at least, how it all began. I think right now, we are more open to it, but there's not anything specifically that that moves to it. I think that, at the time, several years ago, there were multiple factors that I believe played into how we ended up having more people of color in our space.

There were a couple of things going on with two of the large black churches in Atlanta at the time, where members were leaving and looking for places to go. There were a couple of things. I think the other thing was that former first lady Michelle Obama — she had the “Let’s Move” campaign that was happening around that time, and you had to come, and it was happening in Alpharetta at North Point. In order to get that, you had to get tickets, I think, at Buckhead at the time. And so, there was exposure.

Then, I believe, there was one other thing that was very monumental in that space. And it was that Doctor King's daughter — Doctor Bernice King — ended up coming to Buckhead Church, and I think she tweeted about it or something. And so, those things...

Ryan: Like, coming and being a member, or just visiting one time?

Terrence: Coming up, showing up regularly. She would be there, and she would tweet about it, and I think those things were things that all contributed to a lot of the diversity that that happened.

Ryan: Andy Stanley, I think, is also an intuitive genius. And his communication is so good, so clear, that you could be... I mean, really, as long as you speak English, then there's going to be something of value that that man will teach you.

Terrence: 100%. That was the thing that, for me, was amazing. I'm like, “This dude...” His level of clarity in the things that he was communicating; what he was communicating, and how he was communicating — that was the thing that got me. That, and being able to get out of church and see the entire football game was also...

Ryan: It’s a bonus.

Terrence: Yeah, that was a bonus. And I think those same things also aligned with a lot of people of color in the Atlanta area — on top of having incredible family ministry environments. I think that that was really the game-changer. Like, if you ask Andy what the game changer was, or kind of what the focus is, or... Even now, it is creating incredible family ministry environments where people can bring their students, or their kids, and experience things like no other.

So, I think that all of that combined helped to get some of the diversity in the space. And I think that, in a lot of ways — and we've talked about this as a church and as an organization — we never set out to have a diverse church. That was never the goal. But I think, by happenstance — and by a number of things that have happened in the city — it has made us more diverse than we were. And, as a result, we were kind of playing catch-up in a lot of ways, as it relates to thinking about, “All right, how do we make this the best place for everybody right now?”

Ryan: See, I'm always skeptical of planned economies. Or, in this case, planned sociologies. So, I love when you tell the story about the natural, organic evolution of the cross-section of American life that exists inside Buckhead Church today. That feels exciting to me — much more exciting than an intended effort to create diversity, which I feel like often fails.

Terrence: I think it depends. I think, to some degree, you have to be intentional about creating those types of spaces.

Ryan: But you weren't. I mean, Buckhead Church hasn't been. And yet, it's succeeding in creating a diverse community.

Terrence: I think it's succeeding in having a diverse community. I think there's a difference between having one and creating one. I think that having one is... yeah, people show up, right? Like, they're there, and they experience it. But creating one is beginning with the end in mind. Like, “This is what I want it to have. I want it to have a space where people of all colors, ages race, ethnicities, whatever the case may be, know that this is their space; this is their place.”

And I think that we are still working right now — if I'm 100% honest — to help create that environment. We have some pieces. But I think, in order for us to create what it is that I think would be the ideal situation, where everybody can benefit from it — we're still working on that, man.

Ryan: And that’s, like, your primary job, right? It’s to try to take the skeleton and start to put more flesh on it.

Terrence: Yeah. And I think there's a lot of potential for us, man. Like, being in this world, and working in this world is crazy. It's kind of like working in a church world. If you drop the name Andy Stanley, that's huge.

Ryan: He’s part of the pantheon.

Terrence: Yeah. He's like the LeBron James or Beyoncé of the church world, right? So, whenever I came in in this organization...

Ryan: Protestant evangelical.

Terrence: Yeah, that version. When I came into the space, I was very excited about the potential for churches across the nation to be impacted by having conversations as it relates to race and ethnicity, and the changes that could happen — or the changes that we could make. Because, in a lot of ways, churches look to us, right? They look to us to see what we're doing, and then they emulate it. You know what I'm saying?

Ryan: Absolutely. Thought leaders.

Terrence: Thought leaders. And so, that is... In my head, I'm thinking, “Hey, if we figure out ways to really move the ball on this in such a way that is concise, that is equitable, that is of value, then there's going to be at least 100 other churches to do the same thing. Because anything we do...” And I don’t want to sound cocky. But there's a lot of influence that we have in the church world.

Ryan: It’s not cocky if it's true.

Terrence: Yeah. I like that. And it's based on Andy, and the things that he's done, and that man's a genius. But my hope was, “All right. If we figure this out — if we're able to take these tools and create this thing right here — then we might have a real chance at impacting our entire United States of America, because there are other churches that follow what we do. And if those churches are willing to do that, then they'll have parishioners, and people that attend, that would also at least hear and have the seeds sown in their heart — or wherever the case may be — that will eventually grow into a crop that we will see fruit from.”

So, that was my whole thought process, and it still is now. And I am hopeful of that, because I think that with great influence and great power comes great responsibility. And I think that we are at an interesting point in history, where churches are changing, and people are changing, and the needs for people are, in a lot of ways, changing.

Like, you think about 2020. 2020 showed us a lot. Things that we thought would never happen, or things that we thought we were incapable of seeing or happening, happened. I think about how many bosses were like, “You can never work from home.” Right? Well...

Ryan: Those same guys are like, “Do we really need an office?”

Terrence: Same guys. It's like, “Oh, well, we can sell this building.” But I think that's where we are. It's where you can... I think Andy says that you're married to the mission, but you date the model, basically. So, the mission is the same.

Ryan: You only should date models?

Terrence: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's kind of how I took it at first. But I was like, “That's not what he means. I don't want to get him in trouble. He is happily married and having a good time in his life.” But I was like, “The model — meaning how we do things — should change from time to time.” The mission, the goal, should always be the same. But how we do it should change — or at least be open to change. And I think 2020 has shown us that.

I feel like, at the core, human needs are still the same. You have the need to be seen, to be loved, to be heard, and the need to belong. All those things on top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The need to be safe, and all these other things. Those things all exist. But I think it's how we fill those needs as a church that I believe has changed. Whereas before, it was a simple “You come to church, and come inside a building, and this is what we do.” And it's like, “All right. Well, I got my fix. I got my Jesus fix this week. And I saw my friends,” and you go about your business.

Well, 2020 has come, and all that's changed. Everything is online. Like, “Oh, well, how do I get this need met? And how do I make sure that this feeling that I have inside of me; this hunger — how do I get that filled? I think that that is what we are kind of in the middle of. And I'm curious to see how that goes, moving forward.

Ryan: Well, we're out of time, but I'd love to keep this conversation going. We should do this again. I’d also love to have a greater conversation around racial education. You know, both sides — it'd be fun to have that conversation. I think there's a lot of people interested in those topics right now.

Terrence: Yes, sir.

Ryan: But this has been fantastic. Thank you for joining us. I really enjoyed it.

Terrence: Thank you, bro. This has been good. Appreciate you.

Ryan: If anybody wants to find you on social media, where can they do it?

Terrence: So, I'm @TerrenceASmith on Instagram; Twitter. My website is TerrenceASmith.com. That's where you can find me.

Ryan: Good stuff.

Terrence: Yes, sir.

Ryan: Thanks, Terrence.

Terrence: Appreciate you, brother.

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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