The Calling of Pastor Aaron Jones III of Mount Nebo Baptist Church, Atlanta, GA

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, host of the Blackhall Studios Podcast from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm an entrepreneur mostly by necessity, because I have massive authority issues, and also by constitution – as the entrepreneurial life is filled with things I love: freedom, adventure, creativity and imagination. When I began this leg of my journey into the entertainment industry, you may find it interesting to know that my background before this was all commercial real estate.

And then I built Blackhall Studios as a specialty real estate project for production giants like Disney, Sony, Warner Bros, and Universal to have a place to ply their skilled craft of production. I'm from Los Angeles, but I moved to Atlanta six years ago. I've done business all over the world, and I know few places with the dynamism of Atlanta. It's a world-class city with a huge economic future as a center of commerce for a global economy. On this podcast, we get local and global and talk to people who are inspirational, sensational, sometimes motivational, but at all times somehow tied to the ecosystem that is the culture and business of entertainment as it relates to Blackhall Studios.

On today's podcast, I welcome Pastor Aaron Jones of Mt. Nebo Baptist Church and Life Center. Pastor Jones is described as radical, refreshing, and relevant. You will definitely hear elements of these descriptors in this interview. Mt. Nebo is a neighbor to Blackhall Studios in Atlanta, Georgia, and I was very interested in hearing about the new, improvised, and brilliantly-led programs that Pastor Jones put into place during this pandemic that our country is experiencing.

It's true — and you will again hear this from Pastor Jones — that life gets smaller when disaster hits. You rely on your neighbors. You rely on your church. So, a pastor's job gets incrementally bigger and more important during difficult and stressful times. Listen up as I talk with Pastor Aaron Jones III from Mount Nebo Baptist Church — my neighbor, and now a man I call my friend.

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Ryan: Pastor Jones, welcome.

Aaron: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Ryan. I'm glad to be here with you.

Ryan: You've been a pastor for quite some time. I believe you went directly into the ministry out of college. Is that correct?

Aaron: Yes, sir. I started preaching about 21 years ago, and started pastoring 20 years ago. Pretty much a year after I was really a preacher — what we call our initial trial sermon in the church — I started pastoring. Yes, sir.

Ryan: How does one’s calling as a healer of soul change over the course of 20 years?

Aaron: Well, I mean, it changes with the times, really — with, pretty much, what's going on within our world, within our economy, our society. It changes within the neighborhood that you are called to serve. There are varying things that cause it to change. It changes with maturity, of course; with different things that you learn; different things that you experience. There are a lot of things that cause one’s calling.

Of course, the calling stays the same. Let me say that. But your method, if you will, of how you carry out that calling may change. It’s the same with the life of Jesus. Jesus’s calling never changed. But his method in how he ministered, or how he dealt with people, constantly changed. There's a scripture in the Bible that says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and evermore. Of course, I paraphrase, and I always tell people, whenever they recite or quote that scripture, that the personality of Jesus — or the person of Jesus — never changed. But his method constantly changed. And so, if we're going to be relevant — and if our preaching and ministry is going to be effective — then our method has to change. But that calling pretty much stays the same.

Ryan: If your 45-year-old, wise pastor self could speak to your 22-year-old, newly minted pastor self, what are some of the things that you would say to that young man?

Aaron: Listen more. Be patient. My dad used to always tell me, “You have two ears for a reason. You listen more than you talk.” So I think I would I would tell that young, 20-year-old pastor to listen, and just be patient.

Ryan: Yeah. This has been a really crazy time in all of our lives; this COVID experience. Share with us some of the things that you've been experiencing at Mt. Nebo. You're right in the heart of where there's been outbreaks; where there's been significant economic impact. What are some of the things you guys have been doing? I know you've been doing some testing; providing testing for people; food. Share with us how you guys have dealt with this crisis.

Aaron: I really appreciate it, Ryan, because that's so key. One of the things — and I think you just hit on it — that was really troublesome to me personally was the disparities that exist in our community. And then, of course, looking at this whole COVID-19 situation from a national perspective, if you will — one of the things that has constantly been stressed is the need for widespread testing.

And so, because our church, which is 120 years old, has been in the Thomasville community since day one, that was the biggest thing for us. We wanted to see how we could affect and touch our community. I believe that the church has to make sure it serves its local community first.

And so, of course, we — as you said — provided COVID-19 testing. We are feeding people every Tuesday and Friday. We actually started doing that last week, and it will run all the way to, I think, August the 8th. Of course, our services are virtual; whereas we are offering services on Sunday and Wednesday, just to speak life, and to speak words of inspiration and encouragement to people, as we just hit a few minutes ago.

There are so many disparities within this community alone. So we are just trying to be of service to people, whereby we can help them in any way possible — whether it's, like we said, through the COVID testing, through the feeding, through some type of counseling, or helping them find jobs. Getting them from place to place; wherever they need to go — especially with the elderly in our community.

It's definitely been a lot, because we were kind of hit with this — as everybody, really — out of nowhere. I tell my congregation all the time as I speak with them virtually: none of us knew ten weeks ago that we would be in this situation today. So it's definitely been a hard task, if you will. But it's been fine. We're just trying to reach the community in any way possible — mainly with making sure that people are fed, and that they have all their essential needs met.

Ryan: How have you guys been sourcing food, and how you been sourcing medical supplies, including testing? I know testing is not easy to come by.

Aaron: Absolutely. We've been sourcing it through partnership. I believe, Ryan, in the power of partnership: two is better than one. Why try to do something on your own when somebody else is probably already doing it? It's just a matter of partnering or connecting. And so, as it relates to the COVID-19 testing, we were able to partner with, the Fulton County Health Department. They have a mobile unit, whereby they came out — and actually, we're getting scheduled for them to come back out. And so, we partnered with them.

Then, as it relates to the sourcing of our food, we are partnering with the CHRIS 180 Community Service Group, and the Urban Food Forest. Then, of course, if people want to donate food — we've had people donate food, diapers, anything that's essential — our two main sources are those partnerships: CHRIS 180, as it relates to the food, and the Urban Food Forest

Ryan: If somebody wanted to donate food or diapers or any of those kinds of things, what's the best way for them to do that?

Aaron: The best way for them to do it would be to just come by the church. Our address, of course, is 1025 McDonald Boulevard. Here in Atlanta, I always like to tell people: if you're familiar with Atlanta — of course, the Starlight Movie Theater — we are literally right across the street from there. So they can just drop it by the church. Yes, sir.

Ryan: Well, I drive by there in normal times — not COVID times — but in normal times, when Blackhall is open, I drive by Mt. Nebo often. Five times a week; maybe more — because I'll take Moreland down and then hit, I think it's Bailey, that then turns into Constitution. But to get to Blackhall from the 20 freeway, you either take Moreland right by Mt. Nebo, or you might go over to Flat Shoals and come in the back way.

But we're often right there on Moreland. And so, I've wondered a lot about that church. I didn't know anything about you or your congregation, but it's obviously a large church. Tell us a little bit about Mt. Nebo itself today. How many members are at that church? And tell us about some of the history. It sounds like a really rich history.

Aaron: Oh, wow. Absolutely. Mt. Nebo has a very rich history. And I will say this: I've only been here now about... It's been a year. It's been a little bit over a year. My predecessor — I was able to succeed a wonderful giant of a preacher and pastor who served here for 50 years: Pastor AJ McMichael.

The church started out on Kipling Street, and then they moved into this facility. And I think we've been in this facility now, roughly, over 20 years. And so, Mt. Nebo has been the leading force, and a very innovative church, in a lot of areas — especially as it relates to education. I think Mt. Nebo was one of the first African-American churches to have a Christian academy. This church has really been serving this community ever since its inception, which was 120 years ago.

Our church right now ranges anywhere between 500 to 700 members. Of course, the church is growing tremendously. When I got here, we started growing. Then, of course, COVID-19 hit. And now that we aren't able to gather publicly — what's so beautiful, Ryan, is that we are having people actually join and connect to our church virtually. We're in the rebuilding stages, if you will. Of course, Pastor McMichael served for 50 years. And times were definitely different than they are now. So we’re just trying to keep the church relevant, keep it on top, and just keep it moving, man.

Ryan: What kind of things are you guys doing online? Like, how can people find you online if people want to attend virtual church? How do they do that?

Aaron: They can log on to our website, which is www.MtNebo.org, or Facebook. Our Facebook page is Mt. Nebo Baptist Church and Life Center. And we offer online services every Sunday morning at 10:00. Our services are live. We do practice social distancing, and we keep our numbers down. We’re actually live; we have our band, our praise team, and our AV team here. And then, on Wednesday nights at 7:00, I teach. Our virtual service on Sunday — we try to keep it within an hour; an hour and 15 minutes. So we go from 10:00 to about 11:15.

And then, on Wednesday nights, in the same way, you can catch us through our website. There's a link there that says ‘Watch us Live.’ It starts at 7:00, and I go from about 7:00 to 7:45. It's really all very impactful; all about just giving people words of inspiration and encouragement as we continue to go through these tumultuous times, man.

Ryan: Give our listeners a little Bible lesson in what Mt. Nebo — that name — comes from.

Aaron: Mount Nebo comes from Deuteronomy. I don't want to quote it wrong, but I think it's the last chapter of Deuteronomy. Basically, Mount Nebo was the place where Moses died. Moses, in Deuteronomy, speaks his final message, if you will, to the new generation of Israelites who were about to cross over into the Promised Land. They had been wandering the wilderness for 40 years, and they had finally made it to the place. They were on the edge, if you will, of crossing over into where God would have them to be.

So, right before, God took Moses up to this mountain called Mount Nebo. And it is there where he allowed him to see the promised land. Moses already knew that he wasn't going into the Promised Land, because he disobeyed God. And so God, in essence, says, “I'm going to allow you to see it, but you won't be able to enjoy it.” It is there where Moses was able to see the Promised Land, and it is there where Moses died. And of course, God buried him. We don't know where he was necessarily buried.

But that's the significance of Mount Nebo. It was a place where Moses was able to... and we use this, actually, as part of our vision statement. We call it the ‘Nebo Experience.’ Because when Moses went up on the mountain of Nebo, he had an experience — an encounter with God. I think it's the same encounter that Moses had with God when he went to Mount Nebo. It's amazing, Ryan — because our church sits on this hill, if you will. It's like a hill, or a little mountain. And Pastor McMichael was explaining that to me; how the church was constructed, and how the land was when the church purchased it.

And so we say that, when you come to Mount Nebo, you'll see God's plan clearly. You will hear his voice with clarity. You'll feel his presence more closely. Because when Moses went to Mount Nebo, God showed him his plan of the promised land. He heard the voice of God clearly. And he felt God's presence with him. So that's pretty much the history of Mount Nebo as it relates to the Bible.

Ryan: So, there's not a lot of things in America that are 120 years old. I mean, you can find many more in the Northeast, right? But in general, 120 years ago, in LA, USC was being founded. So, I mean, these are wide swaths of time over multi-generations. What was the church like in its original form, in its original founding? What's some of that story? And then I'll have some other questions about how it evolved.

Aaron: Based upon the history, it started out as anything does. It started out rather small, if you will; it’s always been involved in the community. I think the biggest or the greatest thing that really touched this community in and of itself was the Academy — the Mt. Nebo Christian Academy. But this church has always been represented with a wide spread of generations.

Ryan: So, the church obviously was very involved in Atlanta during the 60s and 70s and all of that great movement that was happening in the South — the civil rights movement that had impact all across the country. Was it called Mt. Nebo Baptist during those years?

Aaron: Yes, sir. Yes.

Ryan: What was the name evolution?

Aaron: It's always been Mt. Nebo Baptist Church. And then, of course, once our family life center — which is 20,000-plus square feet — was added to the campus, Pastor McMichael attached ‘Mt. Nebo Baptist and Life Center.’ But when he was here, and even his predecessor — we were heavily involved in the political aspect within the African-American community; making sure that people were registered to vote. I was told that we were actually trying to get our church to become a polling site at one time.

But I do know that, within the civil rights movement, and a lot of things — even with Al Sharpton. He would come to town, and our predecessor served with the Action Network, and he was one of the representatives here in Georgia. Very heavily involved in the political arena, as it relates to making sure that census reports were filled out. Our people were registered to vote, and they actually got out to vote. And our church is still actually heavily involved with those things.

Ryan: Tell me about that. What do you think the church's role in politics is, and how does a church member best serve his church community relative to his political community?

Aaron: I think it's the same thing. I don't think it changes. It’s the same thing that was done with Mt. Nebo back in the 60s and 70s as it relates to policy — just making sure that our people are well-informed. That's so key; that's so critical, that we speak truth to power as it relates to spiritual matters. But even as it relates to those political matters — making sure that the people are well informed; making sure that our government officials hear our voice, and know what it is that we as a church would like to see happen within our communities — because the church is the backbone of the community.

People have a certain reliance or dependency upon the church. And so, we believe in speaking truth to power. We believe in making sure that our people are informed, and making sure that, again, they are registered to vote — especially our young people — and that they get out and vote, and that they fill out their census report. As a matter of fact, we've been pushing the census. We know that it has been extended, but we've really been pushing people: “Make sure you fill out your census report so that you can be counted.” Making sure that people understand what's going on politically, and that they get out and vote — because, of course, your vote is your voice. And so, we really drive that. Our government officials know where we are; where we stand; what we would like to see happen.

Ryan: So, let's set the idea of heaven aside for a second. That's an entire conversation in and of itself, right? Let's imagine that I am a 25-year-old young man trying to find my way in the world. And I wander into your church. I say, “Pastor, what is my calling as a human being?”

Aaron: Well, since your approach was to lay heaven aside, we all have the calling to serve — in whatever capacity you have been called to serve. Of course, that is something that we can help lead and guide you into. But at the end of the day, we've all been called to serve.

What comes to mind as I think about that is a story where Jesus was walking with his disciples. After he performed a miracle, they were kind of going back and forth as it relates to who was the greatest. And Jesus asked them, in essence, what they were talking about. They told him, and he said, “The greatest amongst us is the one who serves.” So, at the end of the day, we're all called to some degree or some level of service.

Ryan: And what if I say, “I'd love to serve, but man, I'm selfish as hell.” Right? “And my soul seems to be broken. How do I heal my soul?”

Aaron: Well, that's the key. You have to heal your soul. Whatever it is that has broken your soul, it has to be dealt with. You have to be honest and true to it. I like to tell people, “We’ve got to stop dealing with the fruit of the problem and deal with the root — because if we don't deal with the root, then the root is going to continue to produce the fruit.”

It's very hard to serve people in certain capacities if you're still broken, and if you're still hurting. And so, I think, one of the best places to start healing one’s soul is to begin to walk into forgiveness — because that hurt came from something or someone. Whatever it is you may be holding on to that's causing that hurt, or causing that pain, you’ve got to forgive, and you’ve got to let it go and keep moving. Because, again — you want to be able to serve people from a free heart, and not with resistance. If you're walking around broken — and if your brokenness comes from someone or something that hurt you — you’ve got to be willing to forgive and let it go, so that you can help heal somebody else.

Ryan: What are the spiritual exercises that are part of the Baptist tradition for that kind of healing?

Aaron: Well, of course, prayer. Of course, counseling. Bible studies. And, then, the connectivity of small groups, where you can be a part of a group — or a set of people, if you will — that you can relate to. But a lot of counsel, a lot of conversation; of course, studying of the word. Reading the word; hearing the word. The Bible says faith comes by hearing; hearing the word of God. And so, the more word that I hear, that healing will eventually take place in my life.

But I believe in the power of connecting people, the power of what I like to call spiritual friendships — where you have someone that you can relate to, and they can relate to you, and you can be open. You can be real, raw and honest about who you are and what you're dealing with.

Ryan: Where does a pastor get that? If you're leading a flock, where do you go for that kind of spiritual friendship?

Aaron: You have to have another pastor. A pastor needs another pastor. He needs a mentor. He needs someone that can speak into his life. But here it is, Ryan: not only spiritually, but even a counselor from a secular perspective, if you will. Because you’ve got to have that balance. Just because you have a psychiatrist that you go and sit on the couch, if you will, and talk to, doesn't mean that you're crazy. It just means that you need somebody that you can turn to — you can express yourself to — that's really not tied to what you do. Every pastor needs a mentor; a pastor on the spiritual side. But you also need a counselor on the secular side that you can talk to.

Ryan: What do you think, when you look at society today, and you're dealing with problems at the ground level — inside of families; inside of society as a whole; but localized — and you see it; you see it, touch it, feel it. These are the people that you encounter. What do you believe are the things that are standing in the way most of people finding healing for their souls?

Aaron: I believe what’s standing in the way the most is the fear of walking in freedom. That may sound kind of crazy — because, a lot of times, Ryan, when people are dealing with things, they become comfortable. It’s the fear of stepping out of that comfort zone and actually walking into newness, or walking into freedom. I believe that it’s the fear of being judged. It’s the fear of what it requires to find that healing — because it takes work. It requires work. A lot of people just want it to happen, but they don't want to put in the work. I believe that we’ve got to step away and step aside from the excuses, and just be willing to put in the work — to put in the work in that freedom. Because, like I said, a lot of people become comfortable. We're playing the victim.

I'm reminded of a story. When Jesus went to the pool of Bethesda, there was a man who had been there — the Bible says — for 38 years. And he asked him, “Do you want to be made whole? Do you want to get well?” He comes up with all these excuses, but here he is. He has the master standing right there in front of him — offering him a new life, offering him healing from his brokenness. And instead of him just walking in, I believe his fear was that he wouldn't get the attention that he received anymore, because he was able to be the victim, if you will. He was able to get certain attention. We become comfortable with where we are. And so, that coming out of our comfort zones is a big fear that people have of getting that healing.

Ryan: So, if I get out of my comfort zone and I seek this healing, paint me a picture of what the fullness of life might be for me if I entered as deeply as I could into it. What does that look like on Earth — fullness of life?

Aaron: Well, the fullness of life has to do with salvation — which has to do with embracing all that God has for you. Again, it goes back to something that we mentioned a few minutes ago. You can't walk in your fullness — or, I like to put it this way. You don't find fulfillment in life until you are truly walking in your call. When you are allowing God to really use you the way that he that he wants to use you.

That picture is a picture, really, of you: walking around with your head up, your chest out, your shoulders reared back, with a smile on your face, and doing what you've been called and ordained to do. It’s all about the happiness, if you will; or the joy. Let me replace that word, ‘happiness,’ with ‘joy.’ It’s really all about the joy that comes with it. You feel better. You look better. You act better, you know? It’s a level of greatness that you feel, and that you'll express with how you serve other people, as it relates to that newness.

Ryan: So, we're neighbors, as we talked about. How can we work together and have a vision for bringing fullness of life to our community? Let's say our community is everything south of the 20 — and east of the 75, 85. Let's say that's our world; inside the 285; the southeast corner of Atlanta. How do we bring fullness of life to that part of town?

Aaron: One of the greatest things that that we can do is exactly what we're doing now. Number one: entering into a partnership. Number two: having conversations. But those conversations come from being within the community; within the area. Putting boots on the ground, if you will, to find out those needs in the community in which we serve. And then we come together; use our resources; use our platforms to give the information — but then, give also the services that are needed. And so, for me, it's all about partnership.

Ryan: Who do you think is coordinating those kinds of partnerships? I mean, who can be the hub of our wheel, so to say?

Aaron: People on the inside, if you will. People that have influence — just like with the connection that we've made here now. One of our members, whomever you may know — not just from a church, if you will, or a spiritual perspective, but even from a secular perspective — because those individuals have things to offer from a governmental perspective. However, whatever influence that we have, we can pull resources. We can pull people together to make change happen in our communities.

We just have to find what I would deem in my church as an outreach coordinator, or outreach director — who has their feet on the ground. Who has their ear to certain things, to hear about what's going on; what's about to happen; what's about to shift — and then bring us all together to make some programs, and to make some things happen.

Ryan: Sounds like we need some sort of Southeast Atlanta community czar.

Aaron: Yes, sir.

Ryan: Right? A community togetherness coordinator. I certainly feel like trying to imagine and cast a vision for the southeast of Atlanta is less clear to me, because I feel like I have less understanding about who the players are, and how the players can work together.

Aaron: Right.

Ryan: Do you feel that way, or do you think you could help me learn more about how to feel connected in this part of town?

Aaron: Well, I feel the same way, in a sense, because — like I said a few minutes ago — I'm fairly new as it relates to pastoring in this area. But I definitely feel as though we can help connect each other — because there are people in my church that know the players, if you will, and that can get us connected. I mean, that's happening literally at least once a week within our church. I've been able to connect with so many people because of people that have been working in this community, working in this area, and that know the players.

And some of those players, from what I'm learning, actually come out of this community and are willing to reach back into the community to help. For instance, the young lady that runs the Urban Food Forest — she grew up in the Thomasville Heights community, so she knows a lot of the players. I've been connected with her, and she's connected me with other people — especially within the political arena. Those community activists, and those people, are really, really trying to change the community. So, I think I know for a fact that we can definitely help each other do that. And I'm willing to do it, man.

Ryan: Well, I'd love that. I mean, I'd love to be part of those conversations and figure out ways that we could have an impact on this part of Atlanta over the short term and long term. Share with me some of those things. Imagine that I gave you... I don’t know. It’s a magic wand. You can't do anything. But you can do some magical things, in the short term and the long term. What are some of the magical things you'd like to see happen in the short term? And what are some of the magical things you'd like to see happen over the long term for that part of town?

Aaron: Oh, wow. Well, number one: getting people to really see who they are. Getting people to really value themselves and value one another. And then — both, really, from a long term and short term perspective — getting people to not only see themselves valuing themselves and each other, but walking into their gift, their purpose, their passion. Living out their purpose; living out their passion.

And then, not only developing themselves and walking in their passion, but reaching back, and helping others get to where they're supposed to be — because, Ryan, I believe that within all of us, there is a level and there is a degree of greatness. And we have to go after it. Finding out what your convictions are and living out your purpose. Educating our young people more. And, again, getting us more involved within the community, on every level.

So, with that magic wand, I think it'll start with me just really getting people to see who they are. Because I know, as for me, God called me as a pastor to help lead and guide people to walk in God's best in every area of their lives. Not only does that relate spiritually, but it also relates physically. And it also relates within our souls’ realm; emotionally. And so, with that magic wand — short term? Getting people just to boom. Really, really tap into who they are, and begin to walk into their greatness. And then, long term: they're walking in their greatness. And then, of course, reaching back. Helping others to walk into that greatness. Of course, short term: dealing with the economic disparities that exist just within our community, and really getting people to see the importance of being involved and taking care of the community — and, again, walking in their purpose; in what God has ordained.

Ryan: So, I've read somewhere that you describe yourself as radical. I mean, obviously, even just calling people to greatness is pretty radical.

Aaron: Right.

Ryan: But what do you think of when you think of somebody being radical, in how they approach whatever?

Aaron: Out of the box. I mean, if I was to just shorten it? Out of the box: doing something different, doing something out of the box that brings attention, but good attention. That calls people to awareness — to look at either the circumstance or their situation, and pushes them to get out of the box. And so, when I say that I'm radical, I mean I'm out of the box. I like to think out of the box. I like to do different, innovative, creative, cutting-edge things. So, for me, man — it’s ‘out of the box.’

Ryan: You're not afraid to test it. You're not afraid to challenge the status quo.

Aaron: Right. Because once I have a conviction on something, I'm going to stand on that conviction. And no matter how many times I get knocked down — no matter how many times the door is closed in my face, or whatever — I'm going to get up. I'm going to keep grinding. I'm going to keep going based upon that conviction that I have. Because I know that when it's in my heart, and when it’s in my spirit, I’ve got to go after it, no matter what. And if it takes radical steps to do it, to make it happen, that's what we’ve got to do. As long as it's in righteousness and integrity.

Ryan: Right. Well, that's interesting. You talk about integrity, which is... I have a lot of friends who live radical lives, but their version of ‘radical’ is intensity. Intensity of success; intensity of dating life; intensity of moneymaking; intensity of prestige. Right? And a lot of these things can be, really, vices. Destructive vices that actually seem like they don't even lead to happiness.

How do you think... if you sat down with one of my friends who had every worldly success, and I said to you, “Teach this man how goodness plays a role, or is maybe even essential to happiness.” How would you describe goodness and happiness, and how they relate?

Aaron: Number one: I would deal with the whole notion of happiness from the perspective of... I think one of the reasons why we go after a lot of the things that we go after — as you describe from a radical perspective, no matter what — is because we are looking for that degree of happiness. And we think that gaining a lot of material things, if you will, can create that level of happiness. Happiness is temporary. I learned a long time ago, man, that happiness depends on your happenings. And so, whatever your happenings were at that time that made you happy — when that runs out, then what do you have to lean on?

So, it really starts on the inside. I would rather deal with that person from the inside out — which means changing that happiness to joy. Because joy is that innate feeling that, “No matter what goes on in my life, I know that everything is going to be all right.” We try to gain a lot of material things, because we think that that's what makes us happy.

For me, it would start with getting that person to understand the difference between happiness and joy, and working with them from the inside. Because Jesus asked the question: “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and to lose his own soul?” So you’ve got to make sure that the soul of the man, the inside of you, is intact and is right. And then we can work on everything else outside of that.

Ryan: I hear you making a distinction of happiness that I may or may not want to make, philosophically. But I hear you thinking of a happiness that people could actually attain that was somehow just serving their ego; making their ego feel like it was getting what it wanted. Is that fair — the happiness I hear you describing?

Aaron: Oh, yeah.

Ryan: That’s a happiness inside of vice.

Aaron: Right. Absolutely. And, again — you’ve got to move away from that. Realize that, again, feeding your ego is not what's going to make you happy. It’s temporary — because when those things dissipate or go away that were feeding your ego, then you’re pretty much right back at square one.

Ryan: Right. So, where you want to make the distinction is, say, “Listen, you may feel what you believe is happiness, but it's really just feeding your ego.”

Aaron: Exactly.

Ryan: And the moment you take away the things that feed your ego, then what do you have? It's at that time you find out if you actually have true happiness — or what I hear you referring to as joy.

Aaron: Absolutely. And you will know it, because joy is that sense of undisturbed peace and contentment, coupled with the positive expectation and anticipation of God's best in every situation. So I like to put it the way the older, elderly saints would put it: joy is this deep-down, innate feeling that, no matter what you go through, everything is going to be all right. And so, as we go through life, and we use those things to feed our ego, you’ll know when you've reached that level of joy — because if you lose it, if it goes away, or if you don't have that level of happenings in your life anymore, you’ll still know that everything is going to be all right.

For instance — those of us that are married, you can be happy as long as you and your spouse are sleeping in the bed together, or if everything is cool. But when something goes wrong within your marriage, do you still have that feeling that everything is going to be all right? You know, as long as stuff is good in our lives, we are happy. But when stuff starts going bad, do you still have that same sense of “I know it's going to be all right?”

That kind of takes us to where we are; what we're dealing with this whole COVID-19 pandemic. Ten weeks ago, everything was good. I mean, the economy was good. People were working. Everything seemed to be good. Then, boom — all of a sudden, you’ve got furloughs; you’ve got layoffs; you’ve got people losing their jobs. You’ve got people being threatened to lose their homes. You’ve got people who, all of a sudden, got sick — you know? But do you still, in all of this, have that sense of “But I know everything is going to be all right?” That's really where we’ve gotta get to. Because, once you get to that point, then you know it won't be so easy to fall into a place or a space of depression, despondency, and despair.

Ryan: Do you think I'm out of line to say that true happiness can only be achieved with true soul goodness?

Aaron: No, I don't. I don't think you are out of line, because that's where it really starts. It starts within our soul’s realm. The Bible teaches us that we are tripartite in being. I'm a spirit being. I live inside of a physical body. I possess a soul. My soul is made up of my mind, my will, my imagination, my intellect, and my emotions. And so, when my soul is right, and when my soul is good, then everything else around me is good. And that joy exudes from my soul’s realm. So I think you’re exactly right in saying that. That's where it starts. Within my soul.

Ryan: You are clearly a student; a learner; a very curious soul. Who are the authors that have ignited your spiritual imagination?

Aaron: Oh, man. From Martin Luther King, of course. Even Malcolm X. A theologian by the name of Watchman Nee, Charles Spurgeon, the Swiss reformer John Calvin. And then some contemporaries. One of my mentors, Bishop Ivy. Of course, my own father, Aaron Jones Jr. Those are just some of them, right off the top of my head, that I can name.

Ryan: Amazing. I mean, I think that's an interesting collection — when you put Spurgeon and Watchman Nee and John Calvin all in the same category. Well, would you say... tell me one thing that you took away from Calvin, and one thing that you took away from Watchman Nee, that have helped blend into this spiritual imagination that you possess today.

Aaron: Oh, wow. That's a rough one there. You caught me off guard. Probably John's Calvin's perspective... oh, man. Really? Both of them, probably, on salvation. Yeah. You got me with that one. I'm trying to think of a book that I just looked at a couple of weeks ago that I was going to go back and read by Watchman Nee. But I think it's both their perspective as it relates to this whole ‘walk with God,’ and the seriousness and the deepness behind it.

Both of them, really — especially Watchman Nee — cause you to think a little bit deeper. Think outside of the box, and off of the surface. But as far as specifics? Oh, man. You kind of caught me off guard with that one. I’ll have to think about it.

Ryan: Well, the thing that I was kind of angling toward there is, I think that Watchman Nee — for all his good, bad and ugly — I mean, we're all human beings, and we all have different perspectives. And Watchman, I look at as somebody who is very willful. Right? Who believes in the power of the human being to shape the world.

Aaron: Right.

Ryan: Whereas John Calvin is much more concerned with God's power to shape the world.

Aaron: Right, right. Absolutely.

Ryan: And at times, they feel like they could be very contradictory. Watchman feels like he's saying, “If you don't act, this world is going to fall apart.” And John Calvin will say, “If you don't act — well, you know what? Everything's going to be fine.”

Aaron: And that's where you have to be able to... what I like to say is, chew the meat and spit out the bones. Because, in all actuality, it's the two that have to work together in order to make it happen. We as human beings — we are God's agents in the Earth, working for him, and he works through us to make it happen in the Earth. And so, you have to really be able to mesh their two perspectives and bring them together as it relates to why humanity exists, period.

Ryan: Right. I love that, because I think of Calvin as an incredible thinker, relative to the calling of the greatness of God. And I think he falls on his face with lot of stuff relative to man; relative to man's role in the universe — where a guy like Watchman is not going to screw that up.

Aaron: Absolutely.

Ryan: He is going to make sure you know that you have a calling — and that you're essential.

Aaron: Right. That's one of the things, I think, that really caused me to want to like Watchman Nee — because that's what he stresses. That whole idea of “You are essential.” Your calling may not be my calling. My calling may not be your calling. But you are essential. You are important. You have a role to play within this universe.

Ryan: And if you don't play it, things might not go right.

Aaron: Absolutely. There it is. I think I’m a firm believer in that. You don't find fulfillment in life, and you really aren't able to enjoy something — as we kind of alluded to; we talked about it a few minutes ago — until you walk in that feeling. Until you start feeling that calling, and you live out your purpose.

Ryan: Pastor, we're running out of time. But I've got one final question for you.

Aaron: Yes, sir.

Ryan: Imagine for me, five years from now, Mt. Nebo Baptist Church and the southeast of Atlanta. What would you like to see different than today?

Aaron: Oh, I would definitely like to see our school systems in this area better. I would definitely like to see more of us come together in this area. I would like to see, really, this area being the leading force, if you will, with what goes on — not only in the state of Georgia, but in Atlanta, period.

Again, of course, the educational piece. Even the spiritual side. But again — just the awareness of our people. Knowing who they are, and how valuable they are. I would like to see a lot of the disparities that exist now to be gone away with, if you will — as it relates to healthcare; as it relates to better retail, and things of that nature within this community. I would like to see it really, Ryan, flipped upside down.

Ryan: Well, I think we could do some of that together.

Aaron: Let's do it.

Ryan: I’d love it. I don't know if you'd be open to this, but I would love to get to know more of the other religious leaders in the southeast of Atlanta.

Aaron: Yes, sir.

Ryan: We can figure out ways that we might work together for the community good. We're in the process of of a program that we're instituting with the Georgia Film Academy and DeKalb County Schools at McNair High School — that is, a very significant film program. They haven't figured out administratively if it's a charter school, or how that all fits together relative to all the administration of a school district. But what we do know is we have a lot of people that all want to help and all want to make McNair High School a center of film learning.

Aaron: Wow.

Ryan: But I think these kinds of things can be things that we do at all the schools in that area, in various ways. And so, maybe, you could help me gather the right people — to start trying to think through how to do this in better and better ways.

Aaron: Yes, sir. I'll be more than happy to do it. I'll be honored to do it. Let's work together, man. Let's do it. Whatever way that I can do it — whatever way that Mt. Nebo; whatever role we're able to play — we'll be more than happy to do it.

Ryan: Well, we'll coordinate that, and we'll start having some dialog. I really appreciate you being on the Blackhall Podcast today, Pastor Jones. You are great. We're lucky to have you in this part of town. I appreciate you sharing your mind and your spirit with us today.

Aaron: Yes, sir. Ryan, I definitely appreciate you having me on. Thank you so much. I am deeply honored, deeply humbled. And I'm excited, of course, to be in this area pastoring and leading. But more importantly, man, I'm looking forward to working with you and seeing the changes and the things that we can put in place to impact this community.

Ryan: Well, I look forward to it as well. I hope you have a great week — and thank you.

Aaron: Thank you so much.

Ryan: Bye.

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Ryan: I'll leave you guys with thoughts that I write on Instagram. “I perceive shadows to be real things. And then, in knowing real things, I learn to pay no attention to shadows.”

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