True Story Brands' Founder Justin Anthony Takes Ryan Millsap on a Culinary Safari

Ryan Millsap, Chairman & CEO of Atlanta-based Blackhall Studios, is one of today’s top entertainment executives! With a vision for Blackhall that’s ambitious, energizing, and boundless, Millsap is blazing a trail through the heart of the South – and setting his sights on the future of entertainment. Listen and learn as Ryan Millsap journeys through the myriad industries, people, and landscapes that traverse the complex and dynamic world of film production.

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Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, CEO of Blackhall Studios in Atlanta, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Why does a busy Hollywood studio do a podcast, you might ask? Blackhall is the home of great movies like Jumanji: The Next Level and fan-favorite series like HBO's Lovecraft Country. But for me, hosting a podcast is an amazing way to meet people and to connect to the community. I learn from each interview and from each person. My roots are actually in America's heartland. My mother's from Nebraska. My father's from Missouri. And though some folks might think I've ‘gone Hollywood,’ I'm now just an Atlanta boy who loves to meet new and interesting people. And yes, some of them will just happen to be famous Hollywood types.

I'm a dad; a businessman. I live on a farm out in Social Circle, and I love the peace and quiet there. But I also love to learn about the philosophy of human nature. So why a podcast? That's why. Thank you for joining me on this journey. I appreciate you.

Justin Anthony is a chef, a creative spirit, and an entrepreneur. He's also moved halfway around the globe to realize his dream of a South African-inspired hospitality group. In 1998, Anthony launched the first South African restaurant in Atlanta, Georgia, under the umbrella True Story Brands. With his parents at his side, Justin Anthony's first restaurant, Ten Degrees South, opened its doors to wide acclaim.

With a desire to share the lifestyle of South Africa, Anthony has coined the phrase ‘culinary safari.’ His goal? Serve remarkable food and drink, be like no other restaurant group in the United States, and imbibe his own personal philosophy of being welcoming, kind and inclusive within his unique world of South African culture. We're going to talk with Justin and discover more about his journey, even touching on his career as a pro soccer – or football player, as the rest of the world calls it – and find out how his passion for experiential, culturally focused dining came to be. Listen up: I've got True Story Brands founder Justin Anthony.

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Ryan: Hi, this is Ryan Millsap. Welcome to the Blackhall Studios Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Justin Anthony, who's the restauranteur, founder, entrepreneur of an entire set of restaurants. But today, we're at his restaurant called Yebo Beach Haus. Justin, welcome to the program.

Justin: Thanks, Ryan. Great to be here.

Ryan: I've also got my fiancée, Brittany McElhenney, who was nice enough to join us. She and Justin are friends, and so I thought it'd be fun for her to join us as well. So, Brittany, welcome.

Brittany: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Justin: Yeah. And before we start, congratulations on your engagement.

Brittany: Thank you.

Justin: Wishing you a lifetime of love, health, success and happiness. Cheers.

Ryan: Thank you very much. Cheers. Well, that's a nice way to start a podcast. And that's a lovely champagne, too. We are on location at the restaurant, so you may hear some background noise, which is kind of fun. Justin – entrepreneurship can take a lot of different forms. And you've chosen to be an entrepreneur in restauranting. Obviously, you must have a passion for food. But let's talk a little bit about the psychology. What is the psychology that someone needs, in your opinion, to be a successful entrepreneur?

Justin: You know, I always say entrepreneurism is not for the faint of heart. You need a lot of guts, hot passion, smarts. But you need a lot of stamina as well. You get hit many times; you get hit down. You've got to get back up, you know? So, it's not for the faint of heart, and it's not for everybody. That's why there are entrepreneurs, and there are people that work for entrepreneurs.

It definitely can be a grind. There's no question about it. I mean, this year is a great proof of that for entrepreneurs in different spaces, but especially in the hospitality space. You know, we've taken a beating this year with COVID. So, like I say, it's not for the faint of heart. It's not for everybody, you know.

Ryan: Tell us a little bit about what COVID has been like as a restaurant entrepreneur.

Justin: It's been devastating to the restaurant industry. Obviously, we had to shut down. I had to furlough 100 people. We kept whoever we could. We had to basically feed people for a couple of months while we were shut down. I mean, people were in a bad place. We slowly and surely got to start opening up one restaurant at a time, and we're now at a point where we have all the restaurants open.

But we're winning some, and we're losing some. Not all of them are doing great, unfortunately. There's seating limits. There's all these different kinds of limits. People are still not comfortable dining in; not everyone's still comfortable with that. So, business is down, and you’ve just got to try. We’ve just got to try to survive. Basically, for restaurants right now, it's about survival.

The great thing is that, in Georgia, we're still able to open. I just came from L.A. and I feel so bad for them. I mean, they can't even dine outside. So I don't know how they're going to survive. This is their second shutdown. But it's been brutal. And hopefully, we can survive. I think there's going to be a lot of restaurants that are not going to survive. So right now, it's just about survival.

Ryan: Now, were you an entrepreneur outside of restauranting before you went into the restaurant business?

Justin: No. My path to the restaurant business is a different path. So, I used to be a professional soccer player. I turned pro at the age of 18 in South Africa, played for a team called Jomo Cosmos, and then went to play in England. And I ended up coming to play for the Atlanta Ruckus at the end of ’95. I played here for the Atlanta Ruckus, which became the Atlanta Silverbacks. And now, Atlanta United is the big team.

But I had a knee injury, and my friends were signing big contracts all over the world, and I was getting offers back in South Africa, and Portugal – just, like, random places. And the Olympics came to Atlanta. I really liked Atlanta, and my knee was bothering me. One day, I looked in the mirror. I was like, “if I can't play at the top level anymore, I'm not gonna play.”

So I literally retired, and I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do. I was like, “what is my other passion?” And my passion was food. My mom and dad are chefs, and we used to entertain a lot in our home growing up. People would arrive on a Thursday and leave on a Monday – like, in and out of the house all day long. So, I was like, “I'm really passionate about food. So maybe I should do a restaurant.”

When I was living in London, I used to go to a little South African pub that used to get me through when I was homesick. There were a lot of South Africans moving to Atlanta in the mid 90s and late 90s. So I said, “you know what? Let me open up a little South African restaurant – an African pub.”

I didn't know anything about the original business, so I actually ended up getting a server position at the top French restaurant here. And the chef owner basically taught me everything. He knew that I was looking to do my own thing; I ended up waiting tables and learning the business from that angle – and then, literally managing the restaurant while I was looking for a location. And then I found a location.

I brought my parents over, and I was like, “Look, I need help. I can't do this alone.” So they ended up emigrating in the beginning of 98, I think it was. And we opened up the very first South African restaurant in the United States, called Ten Degrees South – which is now just over 22 years old. It was on Roswell Road in Buckhead, in a little house – and people thought we were absolutely crazy. People were like... The South Africans thought we'd be in business for, like, three months – because, back in those days, there were two sushi restaurants in Atlanta; never mind South African food. They were like, “There's no way.”

So, we did that – and thank God it worked out. People really took to it, and they really enjoyed it. And we had our instances. People came in thinking we were a Jamaican restaurant; a Mexican restaurant – because they didn't know what we were. But yeah. Here we are.

Ryan: What was it like for your parents? I mean, they spent their entire lives in South Africa, and they moved here at what ages?

Justin: It's funny. I think about this all the time, because I'm about to turn 48, and my father was 48 when he left South Africa. It was such a big thing to sell up everything and move to the States, and leave all his friends and family and contacts and everything behind. I think about that, and I'm like, “It's great that he did it,” obviously. But he's had... My parents have had a whole other life since then – which is crazy to think about. I think about that. I'm 48. I'm like, “What are my next 20 years going to look like?”

My mom cried every single day for the first year. She was extremely homesick, and after a year, me and my father couldn't take it anymore. We sent her back to South Africa on vacation. Like, “Go.” And after three days in South Africa, she called. She wants to come home. We’re like, “Oh, now you want to come home? So now it's home?” She came back, and that was it, man. She's never been back to South Africa since.

Ryan: What do you think? Does she talk about why that was; what she experienced when she went back?

Justin: You know, when you go back – when you've lived in another country... I think the States is the best country in the world to live in. I’ve lived in many countries. What you remember about home – sometimes, you go back, and you realize, “Well, maybe it's not as rosy as I thought it was,” and things change, or whatever the case may be. For me, I love living in the States. I love visiting South Africa, but I don't think I could ever live there again.

Ryan: Well, I love to hear that, because I always tell people when they complain about America. I say, “Now, remember, America is the worst country on the entire planet – except for all the others.”

Justin: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan: Tell the people that are listening a little bit about your experience living in all different places, and what makes America such an incredible place.

Justin: You know, there's just so much opportunity in America. For an entrepreneur, the sky's the limit. If you dream it, you can build it in this country. I'm a great example of that: starting the very first South African restaurant in the country.

Ryan: We just got interrupted by food. It all showed up at the table. Those are some of the ‘thumps’ you were hearing. Will you tell us a little bit about the food? Then we'll jump back to why America is so amazing as an entrepreneur.

Justin: So, let's start from the far right. You see this? There's a couple sliders here. That is an ostrich slider. Ostrich is one of the healthiest red meats you can eat. So, it's super popular in South Africa. It's growing in popularity in the States – but people expect that, because it's a bird, they expect it to be white meat. But it's actually a dark meat that tastes very similar to steak. Like a red meat – but it's very lean, and it’s basically fat-free and cholesterol-free. So, it's really tasty. It has to be cooked no more than medium rare, because it gets tough.

Next to that, we have our bobotie crepes. South African cuisine is made up, basically, of... there's 11 official languages in the country, and the cuisine is made up of, basically, Portuguese, French, Dutch, Malaysian, Indian, and Mediterranean influences. So, there's a lot going on. There's two types of curry in South Africa that are super popular. One is a Malaysian, and one is an Indian. So, one part of South Africa is super, super popular in an Indian curry – which is a yellow curry, more like a savory, spicy – where the Malaysian is going to be more of the sweet curry. That, you'll find in in Cape Town, and it's called Cape Malay. Bobotie is a very popular Cape Malay dish. It's got that sweetness – and we make a crepe out of it. Those are the Bobotie crepes, with a little hollandaise – one of our most popular dishes.

And then, here – at Yebo Beach Haus, we switch over to Ski House in the winter. This is one of our dishes that we bring back in the Ski House. It's a beer cheese fondue. You’ve got a little bread, some mushrooms, some broccoli. And then, next to that, the meat is called Boerewors. Boerewors, translated, is ‘farmer’s sausage.’ So basically, that's just an all-lean beef sausage that we make. Basically, with the skewers, you dip it in the fondue.

Ryan: We're drinking beer and champagne and eating fondue. So, it definitely feels like it's winter time.

Brittany: M-hmm.

Ryan: Okay. So, let's go back to America, and the things that make this country such an incredible place to be a dreamer.

Justin: Yeah. So, if you can dream it, you can do it, and you can build it, and you can make it. There's not many countries that allow for that. This is one of those countries where you really can dream it and build it. And so, there's something... they talk about freedom, and stuff like that. For me, that's a freedom, because that doesn't exist in every single country. Not by a long stretch. And so, if you're willing to work hard and smart in this country, you can make it.

Ryan: How do you think that sports and sports psychology play into entrepreneurship?

Justin: You know, it's very interesting you say that – because business became my sport, and restaurants became my sport. But I also happened to study sports psychology at university in South Africa. And so, I always thought that I would go into some kind of sports psychology role. And I ended up a restauranteur – which I never in a million years would have ever thought I would do. But the psychology part helps with dealing with people and employees.

In terms of the sports – basically, I look at every restaurant that we have in our group as a soccer team, let's say. Right? Everybody has to play their position, everybody has to stay in their lane, and everybody has to do their job. And it's just like anything on a on a team – a basketball team, a football team. You've got a quarterback. You’ve got the running back; you’ve got the defensive. You've got all these players. And you have to know where these players fit in order to run a successful business, or run a successful restaurant.

In in a restaurant, you’ve got the back of the house – the chefs, the cooks. You've got the front of the house – the bartenders, the servers. You've got the hosts; you've got the managers. And everyone has to play their role in their position. It's like running a sports team. I look at it more like... I don't look at it, sometimes, as a restaurant. I look at it like I'm basically a coach, or a manager of a team.

Ryan: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that makes perfect sense. The other thing I think about when I think of entrepreneurs is, I think entrepreneurs are all running towards some things – like, there's some imagination things that they're dreaming about; a life that they want to build. And then, I think that entrepreneurs who are successful oftentimes are running from things – and those things, oftentimes, are psychological traumas that they don't want to be repeated. What do you think some of the things that you're running towards are? And what do you think some of the things you're running away from are?

Justin: I mean, I'm running towards... My goal for the last 20 years has basically been to educate America on South African cuisine, whether it be through food, wine, drink – whatever the case may be. I think the cuisine has a lot to offer. And with America having basically every type of cuisine, South Africa is still very unknown and untapped.

We have one of the oldest wine regions in the world – over 300 years old. We have this beautiful cuisine from all these beautiful regions. And so, that's kind of what I'm running toward – still educating and building. We have a product called biltong, which is our South African beef jerky. It's much healthier than beef jerky. It's air dried. There's no preservatives; no chemicals. It's all natural. So, we're about to do that in a retail package, and hopefully land in some stores and sell online and do all that. We built a USDA facility. So, I'm running towards that – keeping on building and educating and growing my brand and my company.

Honestly, I'm building towards that so I can run from the everyday headaches that I have. So that's what I'm running from. I'm running from the everyday headaches, and to a position where I can do things without having to stress so much about it.

Ryan: So, I experienced as an entrepreneur that anger toward things I don't like has been a huge fuel to my success. Do you experience anger being a fuel?

Justin: Yeah, very much so.

Ryan: What does that look like?

Justin: Anger and doubt are my two big things. Like, if somebody doubts my abilities, or what we can do. And the anger? Yeah. It fuels me, man. It makes me drive much harder.

Ryan: Where do you think that comes from? Do you know – like, in yourself?

Justin: I think it’s that I'm very competitive in nature. I think that comes from playing soccer. I've always been very competitive in everything I do. So, yeah – I don't like losing at all.

Ryan: But were your parents competitive?

Justin: Not like me. I think my father's a little competitive. My father was an entrepreneur. He dabbled in many things, from video stores to... He was a refrigeration mechanic. He was a boxer. He was a jockey at one point. He's dabbled in many things. And I think that's where I get my entrepreneurial spirit from.

My mother? Excellent chef. Phenomenal. I mean, she's an executive chef, and basically, every dish stems from her recipes. And she learns how to cook from my great grandmother. But she doesn't have that fight. My father's a fighter. And I think that's where it comes from. So, I think I’ve got a little bit of both. But definitely competitive. Yeah.

Ryan: So, years ago, when I was 20, I went to Israel for a month. I was in between semesters of study in England, and when I got there, we didn't have any money. So I worked as an illegal worker in Israel with a bunch of South African guys – who were all, like, 6’5”. Massive, massive dudes, right? Where do you see similarities between South African culture and American culture? And where do you see big differences?

Justin: So, Atlanta – I think the reason I settled in Atlanta so fast and so quick is it reminds me a lot of Johannesburg, where I grew up. There's no ocean. It's a city. It's very hospitable. South African people are very hospitable by nature. It's a very warm nation, and welcoming nation. And I felt that in the South, and in Atlanta; very much so.

I think that the similarities... It's interesting. Growing up, and still to this day, everybody wants to be American – or, they're very jealous of Americans. People say, “Oh, America this,” or “They’re dumb.” And that just, I think, comes from jealousy – because everybody wants to be in America. In South Africa, the most popular cars were American cars. The popular clothes and sneakers were American. Everybody wants to have a taste of America.

And so, I think there's a lot of similarities with the people – but there's also a lot of differences, in many regards. Whether it be cuisine – and ideologies. There's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences as well.

Ryan: Do you think Americans are the most competitive people on the planet?

Justin: It's a good question. I don't know. I think maybe the Chinese could be the most competitive. They don't like losing.

Ryan: What about the South Africans? Where do they fit in that?

Justin: Nah. I mean, they're competitive. South Africans are very entrepreneurial. They're very competitive – like our rugby team, as an example. Right? They are super competitive. But then, you look at our soccer team, and it's like... they're not doing anything. So, we're competitive. I think that some great entrepreneurs have come out of South Africa over the years. I mean, Elon Musk's a great example. There's been some great entrepreneurs. Just in Atlanta, there's so many businesses in Buckhead that are owned by South Africans. They're just very entrepreneurial by spirit; hard workers. South Africans work hard.

Ryan: Now, did you marry a South African, or an American?

Justin: An American girl. My wife, Kelly, is from a small town in Florida, just outside of Daytona, called Port Orange. So, she grew up a beach girl – fishing, all that kind of stuff. Moved to Atlanta to study. She's an interior designer. And she just ended up staying. We met in ‘99 at Ten Degrees South. I saw her the very first week I was in Atlanta. My buddy was an auctioneer, and, I was playing soccer. It was my first week. And I went with him to purchase some rugs at an Oriental rug store – and there was this hot little chick in there. Like, the whole place was like... She was flipping rugs. And we were like, “What's going on? Like, who's this hot chick, buying all these rugs?”

My buddy's got a huge ego, and he was so upset that they weren't paying attention to him. So, anyway, we kind of flirted with her, or whatever. And then I would see her around town at some of the clubs and bars and stuff. She was always in VIP, and stretch limos, and all this thing. I was like, “That's the rug girl.” And then she walked into my restaurant a couple years later; a few years later. And she walked in the back door. A friend of mine was dating a friend of hers. She had just broken up; they had broken off their relationship, and they were like, “Yeah, we want to introduce.” They kept on saying they wanted to introduce us. And they brought her to the restaurant. And as she walked in the door, I was like, “Oh my God, it’s the rug girl.”

Ryan: Amazing.

Justin: And we've been together ever since that night.

Ryan: Incredible.

Justin: It's like, “I’m not letting that rug girl go.”

Ryan: Where have you experienced, in your marriage to an American, the cultural differences?

Justin: Yeah, it was a little interesting at first. South Africans are very close to their parents. They stay at home a lot longer. They only move out of home, maybe, when they're in their 20s, mid 20s, and stuff like that. Americans get out as soon as they can. So that's a major difference.

My mom would do everything for me. Laundry, cook, clean. That's just how it is in South Africa. It may sound chauvinistic, but women play their role, and men play their role. And Kelly was like, “Uh-uh-uh. You clear your own plates.” So, that was interesting. I was like, “Let my mom be a mom.” So, yeah – those are the cultural things that were interesting. But Kelly – her parents were German, so she already had some of that; a little bit of a European thing about her. And so, she caught on real quick.

We've been together so long. She uses a lot of South African slang words, and people think she's South African. I mean, she sounds American to me, but people think she's South African just by some of her mannerisms, and what she says, because we've been together so long.

Ryan: Yeah. How many years?

Justin: Been together 22. Married, 19; this past November.

Ryan: You spend that many years with somebody, you're going to pick up a lot of their mannerisms. You guys have your own culture. You have a third culture now. Do you have children?

Justin: No children. We never... it's not that we never tried. It just never happened for us. And we're okay with that, you know?

Ryan: Well, you've got your own little culture – which is this, like, blended South-African-American culture. That, then, has birthed this entrepreneurial life – because she's an entrepreneur as well.

Justin: She is. She's a super successful interior designer. Does stuff for some major people around the world. And literally, I mean, designs things; amazing homes. Her average home is about 20,000ft², and she just has phenomenal clients that build phenomenal homes and businesses. So she's super successful. She's one of the...

I often get asked, “Which entrepreneur you respect the most?” And I'm never biased. I try and shoot straight. I respect her very, very much, because she wasn't really book-smart. She just has an eye like no other. But she's super, super smart in business, and makes a lot of good decisions, and works her ass off, man. I mean, she works hard, and just doesn't skip a beat, man. She is a machine. And I can't even express her talents.

People talk to me, and they always talk about interior designers, and this and that. And I always say this. I'm like, “She is the Michael Jordan of interior design.” She is on another level. Like, I've never seen anything like it in my life. I've been exposed to some beautiful designs, and stuff like that. She's just on another level, man – and anybody that ever works with her says the same thing. They would say the same thing.

Ryan: Well, Britt’s told me that before.

Brittany: Yeah, she's amazing. And I want to say, too – because you guys are such an amazing power couple, to where she designs everything in your restaurant. So, not only is the food amazing, but you go into these places, and you have this whole experience, because she's created this environment that’s just so beautiful to be in.

Justin: Yeah. Thanks. Really, I'm so fortunate in that regard – because I've got my mother, who has amazing recipes that she’s been able to teach our chefs. I have Kelly, who designs our restaurants. And basically, it's all my vision that people have been able to pull together, which is a blessing.

But yeah – that's why we struggled so much with COVID as well. Some people were able to pivot with takeout and to-go. We've never been big on that, because we're a very experiential restaurant. So, once you come into our place, it's very experiential from the second... It's the beauty of the place, the food, the smell; stuff like that. So, we struggled. Even more so than a lot of other restaurants. People aren't thinking, “Hey, let's get South African tonight.” You know, they're thinking, “Let's get pizza, wings, stuff like that.” Maybe sushi, because you can't make sushi at home. So, we struggled, and we're super happy to be back open.

Brittany: Yeah.

Ryan: Well, it's such a beautiful restaurant. And really, the food should be enjoyed in the beautiful space – especially this new space. It's nice to be spread out. I know that the old place that was over near the Saint Regis was a little smaller.

Justin: Yeah, it was a lot smaller. It was an old house. And so, while it worked for us, and it was a beautiful space, this is so much better – especially during these times. It's all open; indoor-outdoor bar. All the windows and doors open up. So it's kind of al fresco; kind of feels like you may be in Los Angeles or Saint Barts. The goal was to feel like you were in Cape Town. And that's what Kelly does. She doesn't design any other restaurants; only ours. And she's very, very good. Like, if I said I wanted it to feel like Cape Town, it will feel like Cape Town. If I say I want it to feel like I'm on a safari, it'll feel like you're on a safari.

Brittany: Where are you guys doing the... Because they switch restaurants, from ski house to summer house. Where are you guys doing the ski house this year?

Justin: So, adjacent to the space we're in right now, I took another space next door. And we've turned that into the ‘ski lodge,’ if you will. It’s kind of got an Aspen feel to it.

Ryan: How do you guys balance a marriage that is two hard-charging entrepreneurs?

Justin: It's always worked for us. You know, we both work during the day, obviously. Kelly's obviously in her office, or out on installations, and stuff like that. And then, I work day and night. So, let's say she finishes at the office around seven. If she wants to see me, she comes to the restaurants – whichever one restaurant I'm at. So, we've always done that. She's been coming to the restaurants after her day job for years now. That's just what we do.

Ryan: That's your ‘together time.’

Justin: Yeah. Pretty much. And then, if we get home... obviously, there's different phases. On different nights of the week, I'll be able to get home earlier. And I try to take Sundays off. We've opened some new restaurants that are open on Sundays, so that's been a little tough, but I always try and take that one day off that we can just spend together, or just relax.

Ryan: Interesting story. Dan Cathy, who owns Chick-fil-A – his father, Truett, started Chick-fil-A. Chick-fil-A's are closed on Sundays. And Dan told me the story that the real reason that they started closing on Sundays is that his entrepreneurial restaurateur father was just exhausted. He needed at least one day to recharge, because there was only so much hospitality he could do without some sort of break. So, it's funny to hear you say ‘Sundays, I try to take off.’

Justin: Sundays have always been a big family day for us. My mom will make food at the house, or they'll come over to our house. It's just one day that we get. Look, we end up working anyway. Let's be honest. We end up complaining about the restaurant, or talking about the restaurant. I mean, through the years we've tried to make rules. Like, “No talk about business.” My mother used to freak out and be like, “No talk.” But it's impossible.

Ryan: How have you seen the restaurant ecosystem in Atlanta change over these two decades that you've been in business?

Justin: It's been unbelievable to watch. You know, when I came, it was steak and potatoes, man. It was a meat and potato town. There was a lot of corporate restaurants. The fanciest restaurant was maybe a Houston's, and maybe a couple French restaurants. And, like I said, there were literally two sushi restaurants. They were like, “We don't eat raw fish in this town.” It was that kind of thing.

And it's amazing, all the... I think a lot that has helped is, there's been a lot of immigration here from different parts of the world. Take a look at Buford Highway, for example. You've got all these different cuisines from all over the world: Vietnam, China, Mexico. It’s crazy; just crazy cuisines. Atlanta has never been given the nod of a big food town, and I never understood it – because there's places like Charleston, or Austin, Texas; Nashville, even.

I’m like, “Atlanta's up there with some of the top. Look, it's not New York, but it's up there, man. It's definitely up there with our restaurants.” And it's been great to watch: people opening up great restaurants. Great sushi restaurants, and great Italian restaurants – these different cuisines. And it's come a long way, man; a long way in two decades.

Ryan: How do you experience the relationships between the owners of restaurants? Are they pretty strong in this town?

Justin: Yeah, the restaurant community in Atlanta is pretty strong. During the whole COVID thing, we all kind of banded together to try to help each other. That is pretty strong. Everyone competes with each other, for sure. But the relationships are strong. Obviously, I'm tight with a few – like, really tight with a few restauranteurs and chefs. And we always bounce ideas and stuff off each other. We're in different cuisines. So, we compete for the same customer base, but there's enough of their customer base to go around – where they might feel like sushi one night, or they might want our cuisine one night. So, it just depends, you know?

I think people come... like, our food is great. I don't think people say, like, “Oh, let's go for sushi.” They're not going to be like, “oh, let's go for South African tonight.” I think they say, “Let's go to Yebo Beach Haus tonight.” They just know that the food's good. It could be anything, to be honest with you.

Ryan: That's right. I don't think I don't think most Atlantans, or Americans in general, would have any idea what South African food was. They’d just experience what we're noshing on here, that is fantastic. We wouldn't think, “Oh, South African food is incredible.” We would say, “Yebo Beach Haus has incredible food.”

Justin: Exactly.

Ryan: Where do you see... So, you've taken some things cross-culturally, like biltong, right from South Africa. And you’ve brought it to America. You said, “This will work in this culture.” Are there any things American that you say, “Man, I need to take that back to South Africa. That would work there.”

Justin: Nah. They've got it all, man. They make they make great burgers in South Africa. They make great pizza. There's nothing... I wish there was something, but there's nothing. You know, they make great wines in South Africa. American wines – because of the exchange rate, the money exchange rate, the American wines would be so expensive. But yeah – I wish there was something. But nothing. Nothing food-wise.

Ryan: So, if an American said, “Hey, I want to go to South Africa,” what would you say? And what would you tell them to do?

Justin: I get that question every week. Literally – like I've got an email. The same email, I just send out to everybody. I mean, look – unless you have ties to Johannesburg, there's no real reason to be in Johannesburg. It's a dangerous city, just like any major city. But it's a little on the more dangerous side.

Cape Town is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Mountains, beaches, wine country. It's basically a blend of Southern California and Northern California, is what it is. And it's just an amazing, amazing place with amazing climates. So, Cape Town is a must. If you've never been on safari, for sure – 100% must. There’s something that touches your soul when you're on safari, and you've got a lion, in an open jeep, right next to you. It's just weird. And it's cool. So, safari and Cape Town are the two things that that, obviously, I recommend.

Ryan: We've talked about going on safari for our honeymoon. What time of year should we go?

Justin: I think February, March, is always the best time. It's the best weather. It's coming towards the end of summer; the start of fall. The weather's great. Some people think they're going on safari in winter is the best, because the grass isn’t as thick, and they think you can see more. But it's so cold – and it’s cold in summer. You wake up in the morning, you layer up, and then it gets hotter during the day. It's kind of that California weather, where it can be in the 30s or 40s in the morning, and then like by midday, it's 70, 80 degrees. But I think February's a great time of the year to go to South Africa.

Ryan: There's a lot of South Africans in Southern California.

Justin: A lot. A lot of South Africans everywhere.

Ryan: Is that right?

Justin: Everywhere. I mean, everywhere – literally. Atlanta's got a huge population. Dallas; Southern California; New York – everywhere. London – I mean, yeah. We're everywhere.

Ryan: Does it feel like... When you see other South Africans, is it an instant bond? Do people stop and talk to each other, or is it just like, “Yeah, they're everywhere.”

Justin: No, no. I mean, if you heard the accent, you might... Like, in Atlanta, it's a little less common. I probably wouldn't stop, because there's so many South Africans, and I know a lot of them. But yeah – if you hear the accent, you definitely might be like... you know.

Ryan: I used to do some business down in San Diego when I lived in LA. And San Diego has a huge South African population. And they used to talk about the South African mafia in San Diego.

Justin: Yeah. I know a lot of those guys.

Ryan: The Mafia is everywhere. Well, when you think of the dreams you have for Atlanta, what are some of the things that you'd love to see over the next five, ten years, happening in Atlanta – both on the restaurant scene, and just culturally?

Justin: So, Atlanta's always struggled with its identity. I've thought it pushes to the limits, and then it kind of backs, scared – like, “Well, let's not get too ahead of ourselves.” And I think that's a southern thing. We still want to keep Atlanta Atlanta. But I think that it's bursting at the seams with all the... I mean, as you know, the movie industry. and all this that's coming to Atlanta. I don't think they can hold it back for much longer.

So, I think, organically, it's going to change and grow. And you see that now. I know it's a crazy time with COVID, but you can see the crime spiking. And this is what happens in major cities, especially cities that are growing. So, I'd like to see the crime come under control. And I think I would love to see some more great restaurants. I'd love to see more people moving here, though, because Atlanta is still not New York. It's not LA. There's not that many people that all these restaurants are going to survive. Let's be honest – people in Atlanta, they don't go out seven nights a week, like they do in New York City or LA, you know?

So, hopefully, more people move to Atlanta, and then we can get some more great restaurants opening up. And I'd like to see some more restaurants from other cities opening up. We've seen a few; a lot haven't made it over the years. But I think that's changing now. And I'd like to see some more great restaurants opening here.

Ryan: So, as you've expanded your footprint and taken new concepts, you've kept all that in Atlanta. Have you ever thought about taking some of these concepts to other cities?

Justin: Yeah. I did a little pop up bar in New York with a friend of mine a few years back. And we were very close to signing a deal in Los Angeles and New York to do Ten Degrees South, which is our first South African restaurant, and to do a Biltong Bar – which is our ‘beef jerky and booze’ concept – in New York. You know, in hindsight, I was upset when the deals fell through, but thank God they did fall through, to be honest with you – because I would be going out of business, probably, now.

Ryan: Well, the cash flow would have gotten so negative.

Justin: And the reason I didn't do it is, I was going to have to live on a plane, basically. And I was going to have to basically move to New York. My wife and I had just renovated a new home, and I'm like... “Do I want to leave this and go live in a box?” And I'm like, “No, I don't think so.” So, I changed direction. I pivoted, and I said, “Let's just open in Atlanta, and just expand in Atlanta.” And so, that's what we've done.

Ryan: I think, from a lifestyle standpoint, that's a genius move – because for years, I spent my life on planes. I was living in LA, and I was buying apartments all across the country, mostly in the South, during the downturn after Lehman Brothers failed. And when I was able to finally take a breath and really put down roots in Atlanta, it felt so good. To be able to do business and live life in the same town, and not be in that spread-out life where you live one place and you do business in another place. I think you made a really good lifestyle choice, in that regard.

What are some of the things that you love about Atlanta, or Georgia, outside of restauranting? What are some of the things, culturally... some of the things you guys love to do?

Justin: I mean, honestly, Ryan – we just work, man.

Ryan: That’s the entrepreneurial curse, actually.

Justin: We just work. I mean, if we're not working, we like to travel. So, look – I love Atlanta. Atlanta's been really good to me and my family. I love Georgia, and we love going to Lake Oconee. I love going up there. Friends of ours have homes at Lake Burton, and stuff like that. We used to have a lakehouse up at Lake Lanier. We sold that, because we just never went. But we like going to the beach. We like traveling to Napa Valley; London. When you can travel – if we get a gap, we like to travel.

Ryan: Yeah. I get that. It’s hard, as an entrepreneur, to find the time to feed your own health.

Justin: Yeah.

Ryan: Because your companies become so all-encompassing.

Justin: Yeah. And that's been especially true this year for us, because, as we try to survive this thing... it's all-encompassing. We're at the stage where we don't even make a plan anymore for the week, or the next day. We wake up, and we say, “What is the plan today?” Because every day, something happens. Every single day, something changes. Something happens, and what you thought you were going to do tomorrow ends up being the complete opposite of what you do.

It's crazy times, and you can't plan anything right now in our industry – because literally, things are changing every single day. And people are crazy, man. People are acting crazy. People are just not in a good place right now. I think everyone's over it, and everyone's just... people are doing crazy stuff, man.

Ryan: Okay, so this question is not a sports psychology question, because sports psychology is really all about present-moment living – which a lot of entrepreneurship is, really. It’s like what you just described. You get up in the morning, and you say, “What are the problems that I have to face right now?” But this is a bigger-picture question, which is: How do you think the universe is organized? Do you think there's an organization, or do you think this is all chaos?

Justin: Yeah, no. There's definitely an organized... there's something out there, man. There's definitely something about the universe. I used to laugh. I'm good friends with Sara Blakely, the founder of Spanx. And she always talks about the universe – like, “Let me ask the universe,” and then she asks the universe.

And then I started asking the universe. I don't know. It's interesting. I don't know if God is the universe, or if... But there's something bigger out there, and there's definitely some kind of a pattern. I haven't figured it out yet. But yeah – definitely, sometimes, I have to put my faith in something bigger. Not only to stay sane, but... I think things have a way of working themselves out for reasons.

So, sometimes, you just gotta put your faith in it and hope for the best, man. You know? People are just... like I said. Even like our staff. I deal with it on a daily basis. Mentally, they're exhausted. Right? I mean, you get a little tickle in your throat. “Do I have COVID?” There's just this anxiety that people are dealing with on another level. It's hard enough dealing with problems in a restaurant, because there's a lot of things that happen on a daily basis in a restaurant. There's just so many things that happen, and you have to be very multi-faceted, and multitask. And when you add another dimension – adding this anxiety, and these things that are happening – it's draining, man. It's definitely draining.

Ryan: Well, you touched on this, but this is actually my favorite question to ask people – because it's really my primary life-haunting question, which is: Do you think the universe has a personality?

Justin: Yeah, right now, I think it's got a bit of a dark sense of humor. The universe’s sense of humor is a little dark right now. I don't know if it's angry with us, or what's going on. But it definitely has a personality, for sure. I think so.

Ryan: It feels like it, doesn't it? Because, whether it's a dark sense of humor, or anger, or sadness, or excitement, or delight... Doesn't feel like all these emotions that we experience came out of nowhere?

Justin: Yeah.

Ryan: You experience that too?

Justin: 100%.

Ryan: I'm so glad I'm not alone. What do you think, Britt? Do you think the universe has a personality?

Brittany: Oh, yeah. For sure. I mean, we talk about this stuff all the time. It definitely has a personality. And it's very apparent right now.

Ryan: Well, if the universe has taste buds, it should come to Ten Degrees South, and it should come here to Yebo Beach Haus, where we are. And I've been to Biltong Bar. I love all that very lean beef jerky, which is fantastic. We're running out of time, but I really appreciate you joining us on this podcast today. It's been awesome.

Justin: Appreciate you.

Ryan: Mostly, I want to close this up because I want to eat all this food that's getting cold. Thanks, Justin. Appreciate it.

Justin: Thanks, man. Bye-bye.

Ryan: I'm Ryan Millsap, and this is the Blackhall Studios Podcast.

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